Rebuilding a 230SL engine, oddball questions I cannot find answers for.

[tkarttrev]

Hello, I am new here but I am up to my ears in the rebuild of a '63 230Sl engine. I was handed this engine in boxes, and it has been a major undertaking to put it back together the right way. This site has been a great resource, but there are questions I cannot find the answers to (probably due to me not searching for the right keywords.) The car is a 1963 230SL with an automatic trans. The work I have done so far: crank grind, sleeved the bores, new OEM pistons,rings,bearings, rebuilt oil pump, reworked the head including valve job, pressure testing, renewing rockers, set spring pressures, injection pump rebuild (outsourced) lots of cosmetic restoration such as blasting aluminum, plating fuel lines/linkages etc. 

1: I cannot find any reference to timing marks on the dist/oil pump/injection pump sprocket. I know where the TDC is and cam timing is set, but I cannot see any dimple/marks on the Injection pump/dist sprocket and wonder if this sprocket gets timed. Also, tightening torque on the nut that holds the distributor gear on this shaft?

2: Front crank seal: do you find more success installing it after the lower pan in in place or slide it over the nose of the crank and then tighten up the pan. Remember the engine is out and easy to access.

I appreciate the help, thank you for your insights in advance. I will post some pictures of the process so far. 
Cheers,
Trevor

[tkarttrev]

Here are some pictures so far.

[ctaylor738]

There is no mark on the sprocket on the auxiliary shaft.  I'll try to explain the process of getting everything lined up after the sprocket is installed.  

First, install the timing chain/cam sprocket completely with the notch on the thrust washer aligned with the mark on the front tower, with the crank at TDC.  Then turn the crank to 20 degrees ATDC.  Line up the missing tooth on the injection pump sprocket with the mark on the flange - about 10 o'clock, and install the pump.  

Then turn the crank almost two revolutions to bring it back to TDC.  Be sure the cam is still aligned.  Align the distributor rotor so it is pointing at the small mark on the case and install the distributor.  It should go in with the rotor/mark in about the 3 o'clock position.  You will probably have to mess with the positioning of the drive dog to get it right.

I couldn't find a torque spec for the nut on the shaft.  I put some Loctite on the shaft it and get it "tight."

[tkarttrev]

Chuck,
Thanks for the quick reply. I figured as much, but better to make sure.

[ctaylor738]

NP.  Be sure not to forget the thrust washer that goes between the gear and the block.

On the front seal, I have used a large deep-well socket as an installation tool and tapped it in with a hammer.

[KevinC]

Trevor,

This might be a good reference book for you...

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21705.0

Kevin

PS: I am not far from you in Hampden, MA. I might stop down sometime. My neighbor has 280SL and a home in Mystic. Perhaps we'll both come by?

[ja17]

I like to install all the timing gears, oil pump and all chain sprockets camshaft and cylinder head WITHOUT the rocker arms in place, and without the spark plugs. In this way you can easily turn the engine without crashing parts into each other. The engine turns easily and you can safely set the camshaft (valve timing). The small short timing gear under the distributor needs to be indexed so, just leave it out until you are ready to install the distributor. All other timing gears, sprockets and oil pump can be installed and are not indexed until the timing chain is installed.  The timing process begins with the timing chain installation. After the chain is threaded through the block, set the crankshaft at 0 TDC. Set the camshaft so that the notch in its slotted washer aligns with the raised notch on the front cam stand. Finish the chain installation, and install the chain tensioner. Rotate the engine two revolutions in the normal rotation then double check to make sure your chain timing (valve timing) is still aligned. Next rotate the engine further to 20 ATDC (compression stroke #1, both front cam lobes pointing basically upward), index the marks on the end of the injection pump and install the injection pump. Make sure you do not forget the splined connector sleeve before installing the injection pump. Go ahead and rotate the engine around a couple rotations so that it is again at 0 (zero) TDC compression stroke #1 (frt cam lobes upward), to prepare for the distributor installation. Closely study the notches in the top of the short distributor timing gear. The notch is slightly off-set. Closely study the two cogs on the bottom of the distributor shaft. The cogs are slightly off-set also. You will need to have these off-sets matched up for distributor installation. Depending on which distributor is in your car, exact orientation may vary. Clean the top rim of the distributor so that the "slash" mark on the rim is visible. In any case, this slash mark is oriented on the left front fender side (or8:00- 9:00 o'clock position looking down, with radiator in the 12:00 o'clock position). Orientation of the vacuum cell on the distributor may vary depending on which distributor is in your car. When correctly installed, the distributor rotor will point to the slash mark on the rim of the distributor when the engine is at 0 (zero) TDC #1 (frt cam lobes basically upward). The slash mark, as mentioned should be oriented roughly 8:00-9:00 o'clock, in the engine bay. Before installing the short timing gear under the distributor take note of the off-set orientation of it and of the distributor. You must keep the off-sets matched after installation. Just drop the short gear in place then follow it up with the distributor, paying attention to the off-set. Notice that the small timing gear rotates as it drops into place. Follow up with the distributor and check final orientation. If it is off just pull the pair and rotate until orientation is correct. Before finalizing the installation, remove the distributor one last time and install the small spring under the distributor. It prevents the small up and down movements of the small timing gear. You can also do a rough static timing on your ignition points at this point. Now install your rocker arms one at a time, adjusting the valves as you go along.  Check your valve timing one last time along the way. Leave all spark plugs out until the fuel system is primed and oil pressure  rises on the gauge.

Easiest to install the front crank seal before the oil pan is in place. Make sure that the lips of the seal are packed with grease and make sure the lips of the seal are around the spacer ring and not caught in front of it.

[ja17]

Sorry for the re-done-dent reply, I was working on my reply the same time as Chuck.

[tkarttrev]

Thank you both for the great insights. I am feeling confident that all I have the timing correct.
I will post some pictures soon and I am sure I will have more oddball questions.
I also have a 250SL in my shop with hard starting cold. There have been some great posts regarding that issue too, and so I am getting to know these cars all too well.
Thanks again guys.
Trevor

[ja17]

For hard starting cold, first make sure the cold starting valve (CSV) on the intake and the injection pump starting solenoid are both getting current when the starter is activated with cold engine. If not check back with us.

[ctaylor738]

Also make sure the rotor button in the distributor cap isn't broken off.

[tkarttrev]

Thanks for all the insight up to this point.

Here are a few more bumps I am running into and could use some help with:

I understand the rear crank seals on these cars and how they work. The seal installed as it should in the block, but the groove in the oil pan is considerably narrower and shallower, about 7mm as opposed to 10mm on the block. I know this engine had blown up before, and the rods are not from a 230SL. While it is possible that the pan is from another engine as well, it has the number 180 014 2302 2 cast in it.   This pan number seems to be associated with a 230SL Any help or insight here would be greatly appreciated. The MB number of the seal I have gotten that fits the block not the pan is 001 997 12 41


At the front of the head, there is a bolt that holds on the fuel line bracket and keeps the tensioner pivot shaft in the head. It got lost at the machine shop, anyone have one? Source for one?

Thanks so much,
Trev

[tkarttrev]

Here is a picture of the seal and the pan. You can see the size difference in both depth and thickness. I have ordered several and all come through the same. I have tried to squeeze it in and no way. I am not going to put it together with the wrong part in there.
Thanks for any guidance. Trev
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwMpEU1UGNdkRWY3NHh5ZDlwUlU/view?usp=sharing

[tkarttrev]

I am also looking for a fuel pipe that fell apart at the plater. It is number 175 in this schematic.
https://www.niemoeller.de/artikelbilder/w113/08_03.jpg
Anyone?
Thanks
Trev

[Benz Dr.]

That's a part that is only used on 230SL's so it will be a bit harder to find.

Question: how did you rebuild your oil pump and why? I always use a new oil pump with every rebuild. New pumps are high volume and I believe they are better than the original old ones. Any oil pump should make it to 150,000 miles but they won't live to 300,000 miles. If something came apart in your engine, and by that I mean anything, then a new pump is a must. Any small shards that go through the engine will damage the oil pump and many other parts that are not visible until disassembly is completed.  Just saying..........

[ja17]

Okay, the groove in the block and the one in the oil pan should be the same. Someone has used an earlier oil pan on your engine. You will either have to find another oil pan or get an earlier seal. If you get an earlier seal you will have 1/2 of each style in use. Not a recommended situation, but I see know reason why it should not work. The later wider seal may last a bit longer than the early skinny ones. As far as the bolt in the front of the head. It is not that special but is a finer metric thread than the normal. Two styles are possible, a long one if you have factory AC, and a short one if have no factory AC. Do not ever torque in  a bolt which is too long. It will bottom out and crack the head casting. Which do you need, long or short?

Dr. Benz, on the fuel pipe, is it the same on a 220SE engine? I have some of these if so.  Otherwise, have the old one fixed.

[tkarttrev]

Thank you guys for the quick reply. Your knowledge on this car has been a huge help.

I agree on the oil pump, I would never reuse one that had a catastrophic failure, and this pump has not seen that by the tell tale signs that you just mentioned. I could not find a new pump anywhere, and I could send it to Germany to get rebuild for E450 but after talking to them, I felt the pump was usable without a trip there. There is no scoring on either the impellers or the outer casing of the pump. The pump has some corrosion from sitting at one point in it's life. The corrosion is just pitting and is not where the impellers seal, it is where they pick up and pump out the oil, so I cleaned and left it. I wish I had pictures but it is already together. Where there was some scoring was on the top surface of the pump housing, where the top of the impeller would seal against. It was nothing dramatic, but worth a very fine fly cut. We made sure there is tolerance for the shaft/drive and housing to accommodate. I am working with a few veteran machinists on this and I trust their judgement. But you are right on, if I could have called MB and got a pump, I would have preferred that.

As for the oil pan, I am so glad I am not going nuts. So there is an earlier pan that has a smaller seal? Thank you for that insight. From what year and model would you suggest I start looking for a seal to fit?

As for the fuel pipe, there is a flare and nut missing from each end and the cast T is almost gone from the plating, so I think making a new one or coming up with a hose arrangement would work, but finding a replacement would be my first choice.
Does anyone have a source, new or used, for this pipe?

Thank you all again for the help and advice.

[Benz Dr.]

That's odd. I ordered an oil pump last week for a 230SL last week and it arrived no problem. It's a newer version but I know it will work.

[tkarttrev]

Really? My dealer is not into helping, and Classic told me I was SOL, even some sources I have in Germany said it was NA. Where did you get it?
Thanks, don't know if I will get one now as we have a lot of time in the existing one but for future reference.
Trev

[jpinet]

I bought an oil pump a few weeks for my 230Sl from Metric Motors. No shortage there!

[tkarttrev]

I was able to get the oil pump from Metric Motors, thank you for that lead.

I also found the rear seal, it turn out it was a 6mm seal, got it from a Unimog parts supplier

So I am still looking for the steel fuel pipe under the hood that fell apart at the plater. Any help is always appreciated.

......
I am also looking for a fuel pipe that fell apart at the plater. It is number 175 in this schematic.
https://www.niemoeller.de/artikelbilder/w113/08_03.jpg 

[tel76]

You can get the pipe from MB, at a price.

[tkarttrev]

HI, Mercedes Classic says it is No Longer Available, is there another way to find it from MB? Any other sources? Thanks for the help.

[tkarttrev]

Hello Group,
My books do not list a process for torquing the main crankshaft pulley bolt at the front of the crank. I have a new bolt and dished washers. Any guidance is appreciated. I have searched the forums but cannot find it either.  Thanks again.
Trevor

[Benz Dr.]

It's easier to do this when the oil pan is still off the engine. I use a hammer handle to lock he crank in place and then I use a 3/4 inch torque wrench. Most 1/2 units are right at their upper limit of 150 ft/lbs which is really beyond the amount you should be going to.
Use a bit of oil on the washer that the screw will snug up against so it will torque down nicely.