Author Topic: decrease in idle speed during warm up  (Read 7558 times)

n/a

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decrease in idle speed during warm up
« on: September 27, 2004, 21:43:10 »
I notice that the idle speed decreases during warm up, in proportion to the temperature rise.  Once I reach operating temp, the idle speed stays steady.  Has anyone experienced this?  I'm talking about a decrease of about 300 rpms as the temp slowly rises.  Once operating temp is reached, the rpm goes back up.  Any thoughts?
Regards,
Don

Tom

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2004, 21:48:06 »
Don,

Sounds like a properly working cold start system that many of us envy.

Best,

Tom

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1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
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1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic

hauser

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 22:03:50 »
That's what my car does during its warm up period.  I always let it warm up before driving.  I usually just reach in start it up and push it out of the garage.  I'll let it reach operating temp outside so that it doesn't set off the smoke alarms. ;)  

My exhaust feels like a leaf blower during initial warm ups.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

Ben

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2004, 02:04:24 »
quote:
Once operating temp is reached, the rpm goes back up. Any thoughts?


.......I think Don is concerned about the above not being correct !!

It should start from cold with the highest idle speed which should reduce gradually during warm up until it eventually settles at abou 800RPM. It shouldn't go any higher than this when warm !

I dont have any explaination except maybe a stuck linkage or I have heard if the weights in the distributor are partially seized the idle can stick in a slightly higher position erractically !!

My own car start right up instantly from cold, but always stalls first time unless I literally drive away the second I let go of the key. It will start up second time and idle fine, higher when cold, I assume the fuel lines are pressurized fully here !


Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

A Dalton

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2004, 08:49:51 »
The confusion is in the structure of your post.
 Idle is supposed to decrease as temp increase.
 If you post the rpms , it would be easier to understand.
 If I read it correctly, I think you are saying that it is going as low as 500rpm as it gets to temp, and then gets  up to 800 at normal operating temp??


 If so,then the first thing to do  is to remove the air filter at the pump with a  22mm wrench [ check it for blockage] . Once off , start the cold car and put you finger at the hole where the filter was .. there should be a high suction at that port and it will decrese as the temp rises . When it finally warms up, there should be NO suction.
 This is the warm up Colds Start Thermo and Slide . It richens the a/f mix at low temps and shuts off at operating temp.
 Normal rpms should be [ dependant on temp] around 1200 cold and decreasing as it warms up, getting down to normal idle of 800/900.
 If all works well with air filter off , check and clean filter , as a blocked filter will choke the air intake on this device ..and cause your condition.
 There are adjustments for all this, but the above is where you want to start...
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 10:02:39 by A Dalton »

gwuisman

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2004, 13:31:58 »
I have the same experience as Don. My car fires up in one time: rpms 800. Then the rpms sink till 600 during the warming up. After the car is warmed up in about 10 minutes the rpms are 800 again and stay there. Only with hot weather and a long ride the rpms rise till 900. But now a phenomena I can not understand. After shutting of the (hot) engine and directly starting it again, the idle starts with 600 rpms. A (very) little ride and the rmps are 800 again. I can live with my rpms sceme but how does this work?

The answers of Ben and Dalton are opposit to that of Tom. Do we need to live with this confusion or is there any definitive explanation?

The warming up procedure of Hauser is contrary to all advice one can read about warming up an engine. The general opinion is that you should not warm up your car at idle as the oil will not reach the cylinders. The result is heavy wear of the engine. Does this theory not apply on our cars? Perhaps the warming up way of Hauser caused the smoke he does not want in his garage.
 
Gerard Wuisman
1970 280sl
« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 13:35:14 by gwuisman »

J. Huber

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2004, 13:56:16 »
Sorry, no definite answer here. Just my numbers. My car fires up ice cold at 950 or so. It then drops briefly to maybe 750, then after a few moments is back to 900-950. I realize it idles a bit faster than many -- but it has for a long time and is consistent (so I ain't touching it!)

James
63 230SL
James
63 230SL

A Dalton

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2004, 15:08:46 »
<<Do we need to live with this confusion or is there any definitive explanation?
>>
 Well, here is an attempt.....
 The design of the cold start and cold run on these 113s has gone through 3 start versions and 5 or 6 pump changes ..so not all applies,
 But , the general COLD RUN design is this:
 When coolant temps are low ,  the cold start thermo on the pump senses low temps , it opens a slide that allows more air to enter the engine [ even though the throttle plate is closed] ..this is Auxilary Intake of air [ at the air  filter on pump] ... at the same time , it moves the Fuel Rack foward to allow for more fuel {Enrichening the mix]  This should bring the rpms UP ..As the coolant temp heats the thermo valve , it decreases the rack position and starts to cut off the auxillary air , keeping the a/f mix proportional.
 When the engine temp get near normal, this apparatus is no longer needed and should have completely cut off the air entering the filter and also let the rack go back to its nuetral position...in other words , it is DONE and now has NO EFFECT on the a/f mix .. kinda like a carb cable choke that is now full open and moot..
 So , in theory, the lowest RPM at idle will be after the Thermo valve is DONE with its job..any time it is in the circuit, you should have HIGHER THAN NORMAL rpms...if you DO NOT , then your pump and linkage adjustments are incorrect..[providing all ignition specs are met]

 So, how do we know ??
 You pop the cap in front of the pump and screw a 5mm screw into the Test Hole at the end of the rack [ unfortunately, the late pumps, after R22, no longer had this convenience] .. While the car is warming up . you watch the screw .it should be foward while warm-up
[ richening the mix] and at warm -up, it should go in..
 ..now , here is the trick...
 ..as the car is warming and we are still in the thermo operating warm up time frame, at any point , we  hand pull/push the screw   rich/lean of its position..if we pull it foward  and the rpms go up and the engine smooths out , we are too lean , if we push it in and rpm go up , we are too rich ..
 the ideal settings are when you push the screw in the very slightest and the rpms increase is barely noticed and then drop...a good way to sink this in here is by adding as little air with the air bleed screw at the intake to balance out the air being sucked in at the thermo valve.
  For those that have operated a carb choke , you know how you could get your cold car to run great when cold by  knowing just how much to pull that knob.[every car had its little secret]..well, what you are doing is setting the perfect a/f mix that the engine likes at that  low temp, ie., a rich, but balanced mix...that is what the cold run mechanisms are doing, and it takes some tinkering to get them right.
 If it seems to run too rich when cold, a quick check of the  pump
air filter is a first on my list..a dirt clogged filter will cause an overly rich/low rpm warm-up in a heartbeat. If , even after warm ups , one still has rich running conditions and ALL OTHER adjustments have been made, the barometric compensator is famous for getting weak with age.. this can be remedied by some shims removal, but be careful here .. better rich than not..
 The problems with Mechanical Injections is that all A/F mixes are dependant on pre-measured mechanics and if any are off, the system has no way of correction, as in newer 02 sensor, info feed back electronic systems... The pump just assumes that the throttle is correctly at a predetermined set degree .. the advantage to all this is that we can tweak these adgustments to our own likeing and they are a Mechanical Marvel  that one just falls in love with....
« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 16:27:30 by A Dalton »

Cees Klumper

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2004, 15:12:45 »
This cold/warm start thing seems to be the weak spot on our cars. Here's what mine does:

It starts up cold right away. For about five seconds, I don't touch the gas pedal because the engine will hesitate during this time, until enough pressure is built up in the injection lines or whatever. The cold idle is maybe 900 RPM.

During warm-up the idle 'drops' only slightly, to around 800 RPM and stays there, at ALL times (stop-and-go traffic, after doing 100 MPH, after a gentle cruise, etc.)

I would guess that Arthur Dalton's suggestions as to checking the linkages, FI pump thermostat and air filter etc are your best bets.

Like Gerard, I have also always thought it's best to drive off with a (any) car as soon after starting it as possible, rather than letting it warm up at idle. Taking care not to rev it up too much when the engine is still cold - which is much longer than the water temperature would seem to indicate: apparently it takes at least about 5 miles before the OIL temperature is up to normal operating level. After that, you can run the car 'normally'.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 15:14:15 by cees klumper »
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
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gwuisman

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2004, 14:19:18 »
Dalton,

Many thanks for the post but for me it is very difficult to follow the story. Is it possible to add pics to it so that I and others can follow it life under the hood?

Gerard Wuisman
1970 280sl
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 14:19:54 by gwuisman »

A Dalton

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Re: decrease in idle speed during warm up
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2004, 17:05:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by gwuisman

Dalton,

Many thanks for the post but for me it is very difficult to follow the story. Is it possible to add pics to it so that I and others can follow it life under the hood?

Gerard Wuisman
1970 280sl



 Wuisman
If pics will help, Joe Alexander [ ja17] has done an excellent "Pump Tour"  pic. tutorial for the group

 http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=790,pump,tour

 Check that out .. also, Rodd M has done an Index of search sites pertaining to FI.  That can also be found in the Archieves and contains several pics..

 In my attempt to address the warm up sections/operation of the pump, I purposely tried to keep the article  just pertained to this part of the pump. I also made comparisons to carb/choke workings , as that would help the reader visualize the system in a simplistic way..
 However, these are very complex devices and understanding them will probably require much reading and experience, so i do not think it practical to assume one can understand the operation without much difficulty.
 The General Design section of my post is an explanation of the workings, and this is basic required info to help in understanding the Warm-Up  air/fuel mix system operation.
 If you check out some of the pump pics and go back to the main sector of my post, hopefully/possibly you will find it be less confusing.
 The second Adjustment section of the post is there for those familiar with these pumps and like to tweak some of the adjustments  .. ie The Tinker Guys ... For simplicity, I probably should have just kept that out and/or done a seperate post.

 "Experience keeps a dear school that fools will learn in no other"
B. Franklin
 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2004, 19:30:43 by A Dalton »