Getrag 265 - 5 Speed Conversion

[michaelirving]

To MK BULL

I am fitting a Getrag 265/6 in my 1953 300 Adenauer and would like to use your bell housing adapter.
I can be reached on 0208 968 6333.

Michael Irving

P.s. I have a lot of M130 engine and transmission parts plus 113 doors,bonnets and boot lid if,they are of
any use to you.

[Jimbo1907]

Here's a shout out of thanks to GGR who was kind enough to come out and spend quite a bit of time driving my 280SL to give me his (much more experienced than mine) impressions on how it runs and drives. Also got to drive HIS 280SL which looks very nice indeed, having had a paint job since I saw it years ago. Goes like a 6.3, really- LOTS of torque, lots of fun.

Still has a few aches and pains but overall mine runs out nicely. We have a few things to see to, and I am going to get my DS over to him for some attention to a few odds and ends....

Brilliant day for driving old Mercedes around here- sunny and warm and surely we won't have a lot of days like this left in the year. GG thank you again.

[GGR]

You're welcome Jim. Your Getrag 5 speed works beautifully.

[Peter h]

the 5 gear getrag  transmission is optimal. Have one more on reserve, you never know....
Peter

[Jimbo1907]

That looks like a brand-new transmission. Are there any more where it came from??

[hauser]

These guys have been around a very long time.

http://metricmechanic.com/ultimate-transmission-rebuilds/

[Peter h]

http://www.gmt-bauer.de
Ask for Richard.
Peter

[PIP1947]

Hi all. Ive read this long and fascinating thread on the Gertrag 5 speed conversion with great interest, as I am seriously thinking of making the switch with my early 280SL automatic. My feeling from your many informative posts is that the conversion is both practicable and worthwhile. My previous Pagoda was a 4 speed manual 230SL and, quite frankly, I didn't think much of that gearbox or the ratios inside it. While the automatic is a more pleasant beast to use, the ratios are similarly hopeless, especially with the 3.92 final drive. My  thought is that I would like to convert my car to a 5 speed manual, with a 3.46 final drive and my preliminary questions for those of you who have been down this track, are as follows;

1. Where can I obtain a new Gertrag 265
2. Is the G265 the best option because it has a removable bell housing?
3. If so, can I use my auto box bell housing in the conversion?
4. Is 5th gear an overdrive in these boxes?
5. Is it possible to also purchase a W113 conversion kit for the Gertrag ie gear lever, boot, linkages, prop shaft, etc, that make it simple to install?
6. almost all 108 series cars sold in Australia were automatics, so second hand manual pedal clusters are probably unobtainable now. Can anyone suggest alternatives that might fit the Pagoda?
7. Can anyone sell me a good used 3.46 diff?

Thank you all for your very informative posts on this subject.

Pip1947
Sydney
January 1968 280SL auto
Tunis beige metallic/dark brown

[Garry]

Philip,


I fitted a Getrag into my ’69 280SL some years ago.  I obtained the conversion kit from the UK Mark Bull, a member here on this site.  My car had a 4 speed gearbox in it at the time.  I purchased a BMW M5 Getrag gearbox from a motor wreckers here in Melbourne.  They are around but you need to search for them.  You will also need to have a new drive shaft made to fit the unit. 


The bell housing of the Getrag unit is used, not the MB one you have. The Getrag will also come with the gear lever to use, a MB rubber boot is used for the interior fit. You will have to source a pedal cluster and associated linkage gear, probably from the USA if it is suitable, something you will need to do some more research on.


One of the biggest expenses was replacing the electronic speedo drive for a manual worm drive, they are available but very pricy from BMW so try to find a gear box with a manual worm drive or find a second hand unit.


Some advice of rear axle ratios.  I had an original 4.08 axle initially in the car.  I changed that to a 3.46? I think it was and it was great with the 4 speed gearbox.  When I then fitted the Getrag box in, the 5th gear ratio was a big problem and was so much of an overdrive that it had next to no pulling power and I should have changed the axle ratio back to the 4.08 and it would have been fine, so I am saying that install the gearbox, you don't need to change the rear axle as well.


Hope that answers some of your questions.


Garry

[PIP1947]

Thanks Garry
That is really useful information for me. It is a long term project, in the sense that I plan to pull all the bits together while my auto box continues to function so beautifully (fingers crossed).  If I can achieve better driveability and quieter cruising without the necessity of a diff change, that would be my preference, so your experience makes it a 'no brainer'. Perhaps I can 'have my cake and eat it' by simply installing the Getrag 265.  I will commence the search for a suitable unit in the new year.. I hope first gear is a tad higher than mine! I will also ask Mark about his conversion kit. As for the other bits, maybe Buds can assist, so I'll enquire there. They are very helpful people. I suspect the pedal cluster will be the most difficult item to source.
Cheers and thanks again
Philip

[114015]

Hello Philip,

Quite a challenging conversion you are planning - but it is possible.

As to your questions:

1. Where can I obtain a new Gertrag 265
You can't. Only NOS or used units available and get it overhauled. They don't make 'em anymore... 

2. Is the G265 the best option because it has a removable bell housing?
In my personal view, yes. Others have used the Tremec T5 which appears to me to be larger and personally I do not like the too long overdrive 5th there.

3. If so, can I use my auto box bell housing in the conversion?
Nope, you have to get a stick-shift bell housing from our cars.    A donor piece. One from a W111 or W108 donor car would be fine.

4. Is 5th gear an overdrive in these boxes?
Yes, of course, that's why we are doing these conversions here.    The 5th has got a 0.813 ratio; from the Getrag-Opel world there is also a 0.87 ratio available.

5. Is it possible to also purchase a W113 conversion kit for the Gertrag ie gear lever, boot, linkages, prop shaft, etc, that make it simple to install?
Yes it is, you need to.    Otherwise you cannot mate the Getrag to the bell housing and so on. Mark MK Bull sells these kits and there are other vendors too. You need to find a few additional parts though. BMW rubber mounts or the front half of the BMW propeller shaft, etc.

6. almost all 108 series cars sold in Australia were automatics, so second hand manual pedal clusters are probably unobtainable now. Can anyone suggest alternatives that might fit the Pagoda?
No, not really. Try to find a pedal set of a parted out Pagoda, that would be the best fit. Or a clutch pedal from a sedan. But there is some conversion necessary then.


7. Can anyone sell me a good used 3.46 diff?
I wouldn't recommend going that route. Either 5-speed with an overdrive 5th (which the Getrag 265/6 actually is, see above) or the 3.46. If 3.46, you need to find a complete rear axle or diff. Not (more) easy to come by ....
Both together (5th gear overdrive) and 3.46 diff will give you a too low engine rev number in 5th gear and the engine wouldn't pull strong enough anymore.
Only recommendable if you live in non-mountain areas. 
Remember please, our cars have got old-fashioned short-stroke engines that do not have much torque at lower revs - by far not comparable with modern Diesels ....

8. What else?
Well, if you plan to convert an Automatic to stick-shift 5-speed you'll need more !
You need another rear flywheel for your engine, a (new) clutch assembly, clutch master and slave cylinders (also new), hoses, lines and reservoir for those, the clutch pedal, gear lever assembly from a stick shift etc.
Most important is that your crankshaft needs to be re-balanced with the new flywheel.
Some say this can be done on the M130 engine without pulling the crank but on the long run, the better result will be the balancing with the separately removed  crank and flywheels.

All in all it can be done but it is quite a challenge to convert an Automatic to stick shift. My friend Heinrich did this on this 280 but he is also a technical engineer and not afraid of the most tricky challenges anyway. 

Much easier for you would be to leave the auto box in place and go for a 3.46 rear end.
This will give you roughly 3000 rpms at 100 km/h or 62 mph.

Good luck & keep us updated

Achim
(with conversion from 4-speed to Getrag)

[Garry]

Phillip,


As you can see there is quite a bit of work to be done.  Another alternative is to fit a 4 speed manual gearbox together with the lower axle assembly.  I have a 4 speed gear box that was left over from my 280sl getrag conversion some years ago.  It was in good condition when I took it out and it has been sitting in a box ever since if that is al alternative route you go.


Garry

[Jimbo1907]

An item of interest to those of us putting 5-speed Getrags in our cars: whilst shopping for parts for my E-type Jaguar, I found (quite by accident) a Getrag shift knob sold by SNG Barratt in the USA (they are in New England) which shows the shift pattern for the Getrag gear box. Black, with white legend and numbers on it. I've ordered one for my 280SL. I'll post about it when I get it, but if it can be adapted to the 280SL shift lever, I will be delighted. There is no source for these, other than a member of this forum who evidently makes a kit to put the transmission in, and will only sell the knob as part of a kit, or something like that.

This knob was about sixty dollars. I'll post follow up once I have it. I think their part number is 23007G, but you should be able to find it on their web site , which I think is sngbarratt.com. They are a well-known Jaguar supply house.

As to the kit that Mark supplies- we had to make quite a bit of it over again. The coupling he sent tore apart in the first mile. I think the adapter itself was okay. We did not use his method of connecting the shifting linkage- we ended up making parts ourselves to make it all work.

I agree that the advantage of using the Getrag 265 box- not the one with the 1:1 fifth but the more common one with the OD fifth- is that you don't have to change the rear axle ratio. My car had had a 3.23 axle put in, by me, to address the problem we are all trying to fix- the too-steep rear axle ratio of 3.92 or 4.08. That helped, in top gear on the highway. It did not help the original transmission ratios, which are too widely spaced and don't suit the engine. When we installed the Getrag gearbox, we put the original rear axle back in the car. I was lucky it had not been thrown away.

Bud's Benz in Georgia, USA, have a complete kit for changing the car over to a five-speed. If it is as good as everything else they sell, it will be fine. It was not available when we started the project on my car. I believe they use a BW T-5, but I am not certain. Details are on their web site.

Finally, I had a cable made up to connect the Getrag gearbox to the VDO speedometer. I will have the speedo calibrated this spring to agree with the actual speed. Note that the odometer will still be wrong. One of our members, Gael, found a ratio-matching small gearbox adapter to install in his 280SL- I don't know where he got it, but it corrected both the speedo and odo.

My car drives much better with the five-speed. If you are not scared of the work and cost involved, putting a modern transmission in a 113 car makes it much more enjoyable to drive. It took us a long time to get it done, but I don't regret it at all.

PS: ZF actually has done a limited run of the five-speed gearboxes that were originally fitted to 113 cars. Basically that unit is the four-speed, with its wide ratios etc, and an overdrive fifth gear. Not worth the high cost of the unit, when better and cheaper alternatives are easily available.

[stickandrudderman]

Finally, we have developed the electronic speedo drive. This device replaces the speedo cable and get’s a speed signal from a hall sensor we mount on the propshaft. It is fully calibrated according to tyre size and diff ratio.

[PeterPortugal]

Guy's,

I have bought MKBulls conversion but I also intend to use some individual parts from the one sold on W113.eu.

They have a ready fabricated shift linkage for example. They also have an alternative for the two rods connecting the shift plate to the gearbox which mean you don't have to saw off the lugs on the gearbox.

Regards

Peter