Wisdom Needed on Frame Rail / Sill / Rocker Rust

[CCollum]

My 1964 230SL has a rust hole at the front of the driver’s side frame rail. The hole is about the size of a quarter. I’ve owned the vehicle for three years now and this rust is not new although the hole hasn’t grown any. The vehicle is in Oklahoma and it is pretty dry here.

I recently purchased an inspection camera and viewed the inside of the frame rail. It was not encouraging (although my “best or nothing” personality doesn’t lend itself to the real world all the time – there really is something between perfection and total crap).

I’ve put a bunch of money into the vehicle during my ownership – much for deferred maintenance. The fuel injection pump is currently at Black Forest getting the royal treatment. Mechanically this car is in great shape, and the cosmetics are good too. But it seems as though I probably went in the wrong order: maybe should have passed on the car altogether (moot point now regardless of the answer), or first addressed body issues like the frame rail rust I now see more clearly, then handled mechanics with anything cosmetic following of course.

It seems to me that once the FIP is back from rebuild, I need to get the vehicle to a trusted body shop for a review and assessment of what I’ve found. My primary concern is safety and roadworthiness. If the vehicle is safe, I am happy to drive it as-is except for on rainy days. Then when I’m financially ready to do the bodywork, take that step at that time.
What I don’t know is what to do if it is not safe, but I’ll wait to think about that if so pronounced by someone much more knowledgeable than I.

When approaching this issue, can anyone offer any words of wisdom? Especially someone who has gone through this particular issue. There are many posts about issues like this throughout our wonderful site; but there weren’t very many that were recent and that were not concerning pre-purchase inspections. That is, I already own this car and could use insight, wisdom, and even encouragement about what in the world to do now.

Thanks for your help!
Clay

[Scottcorvette]

I've just done this work on my car and it is not to be entered into lightly. My rockers had just a couple of very small pinholes which only showed themselves after sandblasting, and one small hole which sounds like yours. I was erring about whether to get into it and I am glad I did. It is a hell of a job but if it needs doing it needs doing.

See here:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21397.msg166841#msg166841

Reply#252 onwards.

[450sl]

First thing i would do is to stop the rust issue with a product like :

http://www.fluid-film.com/products/liquid-a/

or similar.

[RobSirg]

Hi Clay,

Here's my 2c worth.

Based on no facts whatsoever (that's dangerous).......it's my hunch that the majority of W113's on the road today have rotted sills to some extent.
Having just had my project car complete its full body restoration (including new sills) you can really appreciate the strength and over-engineering that went into these cars. (make you love them even more - if that is possible)
I personally think you can postpone that one for some future work/restoration. (that's what I would do ....and in fact, did do for many years). I thin the greatest stress would be when the car is on a hoist so if you are not noticing any obvious flexing or door gap issues when on a hoist I wouldn't worry too much.

This opinion will possibly leave some people aghast but I suspect I am right about the number of these cars happily on the road without the full structural integrity of their sills.

You could consider (like I once did) some remedial work - or rust treatment (which is only likely to slow it down...maybe) but I think the only way is full replacement which you really do not want to do on a restored car unless you absolutely must.

Hope I don't upset too many of the clan with his post and this helps you in some way.

Cheers

Rob

[cabrioletturbo]

My 1964 230SL has a rust hole at the front of the driver’s side frame rail. The hole is about the size of a quarter. I’ve owned the vehicle for three years now and this rust is not new although the hole hasn’t grown any. The vehicle is in Oklahoma and it is pretty dry here.

I recently purchased an inspection camera and viewed the inside of the frame rail. It was not encouraging (although my “best or nothing” personality doesn’t lend itself to the real world all the time – there really is something between perfection and total crap).

I’ve put a bunch of money into the vehicle during my ownership – much for deferred maintenance. The fuel injection pump is currently at Black Forest getting the royal treatment. Mechanically this car is in great shape, and the cosmetics are good too. But it seems as though I probably went in the wrong order: maybe should have passed on the car altogether (moot point now regardless of the answer), or first addressed body issues like the frame rail rust I now see more clearly, then handled mechanics with anything cosmetic following of course.

It seems to me that once the FIP is back from rebuild, I need to get the vehicle to a trusted body shop for a review and assessment of what I’ve found. My primary concern is safety and roadworthiness. If the vehicle is safe, I am happy to drive it as-is except for on rainy days. Then when I’m financially ready to do the bodywork, take that step at that time.
What I don’t know is what to do if it is not safe, but I’ll wait to think about that if so pronounced by someone much more knowledgeable than I.

When approaching this issue, can anyone offer any words of wisdom? Especially someone who has gone through this particular issue. There are many posts about issues like this throughout our wonderful site; but there weren’t very many that were recent and that were not concerning pre-purchase inspections. That is, I already own this car and could use insight, wisdom, and even encouragement about what in the world to do now.

Thanks for your help!
Clay

Without offering a grim scenario (before seeing), maybe it would be beneficial if you share some of the pictures - what you saw may not be THAT bad after all. Depending on a severity, you may or may not need the heavy metal work, and consequently redo some of the cosmetics.

[CCollum]

Guys, your feedback is invaluable. Thank you! I don't mean that lightly.

Scottcorvette -- thank you for the link to your post and pictures. Unfortunately for me, yours look like new in comparison to mine!! 

RobSirg -- I do appreciate your 2 cents on that and wouldn't be surprised myself if many of the cars on the road had similar issues. My vehicle has been up on a lift numerous times over the last few months while getting some major service done at the mechanic. There has been no apparent stress or gap issues in the slightest.

Cabrioletturbo -- I will post some now, but need to get better lighting and then take more. And based on the flakes I am surprised that it's not more effected on the outside.

[CCollum]

Here are some pics. Pardon the varied orientation. I tried to get the camera to the very end and bring it back toward the front where the hole is. The last pic is of the opening itself, and I'm including that for scale...since the scale is deceiving to me anyway. The hole really is only the size of a quarter or maybe, maybe, maybe a half-dollar. But the camera does make things appear a bit larger than they are I believe.

[Shvegel]

That's a really big can of worms.   Speaking from the perspective of someone who is currently restoring a car that was very soft I would offer you the following advice I have delivered countless times when I worked in a body shop.  You need to ask yourself if you are in love with THE car or are you in love with THIS car.  If you are in love with THE car I suggest you sell it and buy a more solid starting point however if you are in love with THIS car you are screwed.

I was in love with my exact car ("THIS car").  I had it running perfectly and it just did whatever I needed it to do so I took the plunge.  It has been a long expensive road as as you will find if you look through Scottcorvette's posts it just keeps growing.  My car started as a "Just fix it up." project sent to a friend and turned into as involved of a shell restoration as I have ever seen.  I strongly suggest you really do a thorough inspection of what you can get to especially inside the inner wheelhouses in the front on the inboard side.  Up in the wheelhouse you will find a roughly rectangular section rail going fore and aft.  feel around on top of that for holes.  since most people who gloss over cars are unaware of the issues there it is a good indicator of the true overall condition.  Also take a hard look at the tops of the inner fenders just below where the outer fender attaches(spot welds) in the engine compartment.

Keep in mind in order to do the entire sill you need to cut off the bottom of the front fenders as well as the bottom of the quarter panels. This is a big job and it's important that you find a qualified shop.  There are many shops willing to take your money and destroy your car.  There is nothing worse than spending 20 to 30 thousand dollars only to find out someone basically wrecked your car.  Please ask around and don't be afraid to ship your car off to get it done right.  I did body work for a few years and although I did very little of my shell work I can tell you it is a different animal.

Here is a couple pictures showing the front rail I am talking about and some of the other woderfull discoveries we made along the way.

[Shvegel]

And done...

[CCollum]

I appreciate your frankness, Shvegel. I am torn, but have agreed with my wife to do nothing quickly. The pics I posted show the worst. Much of the rail is good, but obviously a good portion is trouble.

[johnm]

 There are electronic instruments for measuring the thickness of steel often used by fabrication shops to determine suitability for welding etc. these instruments are portable hand held units and may be useful in establishing a base line on a piece of frame rail that you know is good and then using to determine areas with excessive corrosion which will show much thinner. A chat with a local machine shop or steel fabrication facility may turn up some options for you to gain piece of mind as you determine your course of action. Good luck...John 

[cabrioletturbo]

+1 what Shvegel said.

I personally just went through the similar level of restoration and although it is educational, it is definitely funds-draining.
Maybe you can calculate this way: your car value + estimated costs to make it "good" (add some contingency) vs. buying already sorted out car.

Knowing what I know now, I would almost always go with the option on the right.
Selling your car would certainly bring decent dollars and with some additional cash you could buy a car that you don't necessarily have to deal with the unexpected (assuming buyer's diligence).
Opposite, calculate costs of parts removal, sheet metal purchase, welding, painting, carpet - list goes on. Add some on top. Add some more (you WILL find what you did not expect). Car in shop for extended time. Re-assembly.

The call is yours. Personally, I would resent re-doing any work that I have done already, but that is just me.

Shvegel, I like your "And done..." pictures.

[Shvegel]

Clay,
You need to get a don't ask - don't tell agreement with your wife.  My wife doesn't ask or want to know and she gets new cars every few years of equal value to what I spend while I continue to drive my 15 year old BMW.

[CCollum]

JohnM -- That is a great idea. Through this I've learned it's important to really find out "where you are" on something. I.e., not put my head in the sand any longer. Then I can make as level-headed a decision as possible.

If it's not unsafe, I may just simply enjoy it for a while. All else is in great shape.

And as cabrioletturbo and Shvegel have suggested, if it is in need of a full boat repair, it may be wisest for many reasons (sanity, finances) to take my hit now. I imagine it could be sold at a reasonable price that I can stomach, but that also gives the new owner a nice value proposition. Translation, I take a huge hit, and the new owner starts at a lower entry point and can afford to make those repairs, albeit pricey, and still be right side up.

Cabrioletturbo -- funny thing about my wife. She has been incredibly supportive and encouraging throughout this entire process. What I meant by not acting too quickly is with regard to selling. My bride is fine with me keeping it and fixing it as finances allow. It is me that may not have the stomach for it. I purchased this car when single three years ago from the local MB dealership, and have since gotten married, had a child, and have another one on the way within the month. So circumstances have changed quite a bit since I made the plunge.

Thank you for all the help.

[Bonnyboy]

Just wondering if you have a picture that is zoomed out a bit - for the life of me I can't tell what the pictures you posted are of or exactly where the offending hole is situated.  This is an exciting thread that I am following intently.

 

[CCollum]

Bonnyboy -- I'll take some more this coming weekend. Admittedly the inspection camera is not a top dollar one ($38 from Amazon); and I'll take some exterior pics using the trusty iPhone. I'll also try to infuse some more light into the rails to take some better pics. These remind me of the footage from the Titanic when it was explored underwater years ago.

[CCollum]

Here are a couple of exterior pics. They are on the driver's side, just behind the front wheel, looking back to the rear of the vehicle.