Author Topic: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold  (Read 14686 times)

Pawel66

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Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« on: May 14, 2017, 00:50:36 »
Hello,

As this part  is very difficult to get and very expensive - one has thoughts "Can I fix it?" I have read in Technical Manual it is rather not to be fixed.

Does this apply also to a simple fault like "no ground"? Feels like cleaning something inside, that's it...

I guess the trouble may be in getting inside this thing? Please advise.

Pawel
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

cfm65@me.com

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2017, 02:21:32 »
Hi Pawel,
Well done on sorting your steering box leak. I assume it is a power steering box(280SL)
Thermo switch; That is how a coil or solenoid switch works. A long wire coiled around inside will become an electromagnet if one end is powered and the other end is grounded. I believe what you have found is normal, ie. both wires seem to be alive until the correct one is grounded. The Contstant Speed Solenoid works the same.
Someone more knowledgable than myself will correct me if I am wrong.
Regards
Chris
28 Ford Model A Pickup
29 Chevy Phaeton
67 E Type FHC
67 250SL 5 speed
83 911SC
2015 VW T5 California Pop Top

ja17

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2017, 07:41:42 »
Pawel and Chris,
The thermo-time-switch is soldered together at the factory and is not meant to be opened or serviced.  It spends its life with one end submerged in coolant, so it must remain sealed. It supplies the earth (ground) to activate the relay for the engine starting aids.

It is fairly delicate inside. A small wire coil is wound around a bi-metallic metal leaf. At the end of the leaf is a set of electrical contacts. When the starter is activated, the electrical coil heats-up the bi-metallic leaf and as it bends, it causes the contacts to open. Since the bi-metallic spring is temperature sensitive, coolant temperature and ambient air temperature also play a roll in the duration of time before the contacts open. The electrical coil in the "tts" receives its earth (ground) through it's housing when it is installed in the cylinder head. The positive current is supplied to the "tts" small "G" terminal, when the ignition key is turned for starting. The purpose of the positive current is only to activate the heat coil inside the "tts". The large "W" terminal of the "tts", supplies earth "ground" to the starting aid relay. When the coil in the "tts" becomes warm enough the contacts open and the "W" terminal no longer supplies earth (ground) to the starting aid relay. If engine coolant temperature is high enough, the contacts of the  bi-metallic leaf may stay open and the starting aid relay, will not activate. Since the electrical contacts inside the "tts" use the engine ground from its housing, earth "negative" may only appear at the "W" terminal if the coolant temperature is cold enough and the heating coil has not been warmed from previous starts. Different years of production may have variations in specs. Pagoda engines used starting aids 2 through 5 , depending on the year. Identify and check the specs for your version.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2017, 09:28:47 »
Thank you for your replies!

Yes - steering box top leak it was.

I studied the whole process of start aid - understand how it works, I think. The issue is: you should have ground on "W" terminal of the switch when the engine is cold. The ground from "W" is supplied to relay. If relay gets this ground from switch and + from starter, it gives + to CSV (from fuse 6).

Ground present on "W" when engine is cold is a necessery part of the cold start aid to work.

I do not have ground on W when the engine is cold. I think this is basic condition of the aid to work. Then the bi-metallic switch takes away this ground from W if the temperature is high enough so that the aid is not activated.

I do not have any coils on FIP, this is the only starting aid.

I thought it would not be possible to get inside that switch. Need to find a new one... I have seen the posts on this on the forum - substitutes Bud's Benz, Authentic Classics etc. Will ask around local sources as well...

Pawel
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

cfm65@me.com

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2017, 12:27:38 »
Thanks Joe
Apologies Pawel,
I was under the impression you were talking about the cold start solenoid on the RH side of the intake manifold.
Regards
Chris
28 Ford Model A Pickup
29 Chevy Phaeton
67 E Type FHC
67 250SL 5 speed
83 911SC
2015 VW T5 California Pop Top

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2017, 13:00:43 »
That is fine! Thank you for your attention!

I have just confirmed - the TTS is broken.

No ground on W terminal when cold. No voltage on CSV. I wired ground to W terminal. I got voltage on CSV. I wired back the CSV - the cold engine starts on the sight of me coming up with the key in my hand!

What confused me pretty much: when I was simply checking ground and resistance on G and W - I did not have the grund on W, but I had the ground on G. I thought for a while that someone confused the terminals and hooked pink to G, but no, the terminals were hooked corrctly. What I figured is that probably when you check the ground on G, the ohm meters shows very little resistance of a starter coil. If there would be ground on G, a real ground, the whole thing would be toasted, I think, when crancking...

I thought so far that difficult cold start was a result of mixture being out of tune. But it was much simpler than that, actually...
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

ja17

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2017, 15:03:59 »
Hello Pawel,

Yes, you must have the "Version 5" with no solenoids on the injection pump. It seems you understand how the system works at this point.  With this version 5 you have only the intake starting vavle as a starting aid at coolant temperatures below 95 F.  Later MB models used the same "tts" but it had a plug connection instead of two screw connections. This "tts" is still available at a fraction of the price of the original "tts" and will work fine if  you make an adaption for the connection.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2017, 18:18:14 »
Joe, thank you!

Is the newer switch you are referring to the one, discussed on this forum, A 001 545 92 24?

I tried to ordered it on line with MB (through Webparts, I do not know if you have the same in the US), but through regular line it is not available, so I have to wait till Monday for the dealer boys to tell me the availability or substitute.

Or shall I find it for, e.g. W107 in the EPC?

Pawel
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2017, 11:55:53 »
ok, just spoke to Mercedes: those TTSs, neither A 001 545 92 24 nor the  A 003 545 21 24 are available. No replacements for them are available either.

I am following up on the Bosch parts that appeared in one of the posts on forum, will see what that brings.

If you know any other compatible TTS - pleae kindly advise.

Otherwise we will be ending up with USD 1000 expenses or two wires and a switch moved inside the cockpit...

Pawel
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Tyler S

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2017, 13:33:42 »
Pawel, Have you tried Buds Benz? They have a later style TTS that will work. The electrical connection needs to be adapted but this is all hidden under the rubber boot. See item F210-076

https://www.budsbenz.com/catalog/230-250-280-sl/f-cooling
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2017, 17:41:42 »
Yes, if there is nothing from Bosch, I think this is the way, thank you!
I see the listings of these parts in the internet stores at around USD 100. The question is if they are available. I am waiting for reply from them and from Bosch dealers.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2017, 20:52:14 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2017, 10:52:02 »
Ok, for update: Bosch dealer from my town confirmed availability of the switch and plug housing. 7 working days. Price around USD 100. I ordered the items.

I know Bud's Benz will hate me.

I wil order pins from Mercedes. I think I will not use the rubber. I think rubber is not correct for my car. So I would have not correct rubber covering not correct switch and pretending it is all correct. Maybe I prefer just not correct switch...

For the future, again from this forum:
F026 T03101 - switch (Bosch number)

1284485110 - plug housing (Bosch number)

A0035450226 - pins (Mercedes number)

I hope it all fits together. If that's what this forum said, it must. :)
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

mazmonza

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2017, 13:16:00 »
I bought this for a spare as my original has been in since I purchased the car
and you never know when you will be caught out.
This is for a BMW and a few other cars and although it doesn't look quite right
I think its worth having at £86
                                              Maurice
1967 250sl ZF 5 speed
1991 300ce-24 coupe Sportline
1962 Lambretta TV175/ RB20
2000 Ducati 748s
1970 Ducati Monza

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2017, 14:26:49 »
If there is "1" at the end of the number in the upper part of the picture - this is what I bought.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2017, 12:02:00 »
Ok, for update: Bosch dealer from my town confirmed availability of the switch and plug housing. 7 working days. Price around USD 100. I ordered the items.

I know Bud's Benz will hate me.

I wil order pins from Mercedes. I think I will not use the rubber. I think rubber is not correct for my car. So I would have not correct rubber covering not correct switch and pretending it is all correct. Maybe I prefer just not correct switch...

For the future, again from this forum:
F026 T03101 - switch (Bosch number)

1284485110 - plug housing (Bosch number)

A0035450226 - pins (Mercedes number)

I hope it all fits together. If that's what this forum said, it must. :)

Let us know if the Bosch plug housing fits to the switch.

Thanks
naj
68 280SL

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2017, 14:13:59 »
I got it. Bosch plug housing seems to fit, but I have no idea which pin is which in this switch  :-\. There is no ground between neither of the pins and switch housing. Seems it should be on one of them...

Ok, followed Tyler's thread and found this. They say in the description it is full of electronics, so maybe there should not be ground there all the time. I will try tomorrow - hook G to + and W to - and we will see. Hope will not burn the car  :P
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 14:23:35 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Tyler S

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2017, 15:37:20 »
The switch you got may or may not have a repeat limiting device in it. Meaning if you were to crank the engine multiple times, the TTS would activate the cold start valve every time for the set time interval based on coolant temp. The original TTS had the heater element that would get hot during cranking and therefore disable during subsequent repeated engine start attempts.
 Another potential issue is if this switch does have a heater coil, it may never heat up. This type was designed to activate a cold start valve WITHOUT a relay. The cold start relay coil in the pagoda may have too much resistance to load the circuit. I dont know enough about this newer switch but just keep these in mind when installing it. Could be a blessing or an issue.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 15:58:21 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2017, 20:42:07 »
I have not yet installed the new TTS in the engine housing, but I wired it as appropriate to try it - as I thought - + from starter to +, - to relay and housing to ground. I had probably ca 25C temperature in the garage. The TTS gives voltage to CSV for about 2 seconds when crancking. You can cranck 5 or 10 seconds but voltage is given at this temperature only during about 2 seconds.

That seems correct, actually... I suppose the time voltage is given would be longer should the temperature be lower.

I will probably use rubber, the plug looks too modern  :(.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Pawel66

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Re: Thermo Time Switch - No Ground When Cold
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2017, 12:05:17 »
Ok, the new TTS is in the block. Everything fits. The car starts as she sees me coming with the key.
Thanks for the Bosch solution and for your advise.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class