Is the repair of older Becker radios a viable option?

[GGR]

Dear all,

a friend of mine had a very nice Becker Grand Prix (thin shaft) on his '63 W112 300SE Coupe. The sound was very nice, the radio had been gone through by Becker Autosound in NJ in 2008. The radio stopped working suddenly. so my friend sent the radio back to Becker Autosound NJ for repair, and unfortunately the news were not good, as the radio was assessed as being beyond reasonable repair. My friend got another same radio from Becker Autosound as a part exchange. Unfortunately the quality of the sound is far from being comparable to the one of the previous radio, and this replacement radio has a hard time staying tuned on a given station. So my friend contacted Becker Autosound NJ again to see if he could return the exchange radio and get his older one repaired instead, and what it would take. Here is the anwer he got from the Gentleman at  Becker Autosound:

"What you may not know is your Grand Prix was a thin shaft GP. These were not made in great numbers and are very hard to find. (...) Beyond reasonable repair means that the amount of labor time and what part of the radio that is defective is either not available or is soo deep in the unit that I will never get it back together again. The tuning and volume shafts on yours were cut. I had a very difficult time getting the knobs off. You would have had an issue keeping the knobs on fully. The shafts can not be replaced due to the labor. Also the tuning shaft would require the entire side of the radio disassembled. I would never get it back together correctly. Remember this radio is from the early 60s. The more your do to it the more things will break. 

The grand Prix has a very complex signal seek circuit that all the audio flows thru. It senses strength of signal for the seek to stop. There are several relay contacts that will fail over time causing low or no audio. Removal and either repair or replacement of the relay can cause more damage. Wires that go to the relay are brittle and can break or short. Replacing those wires requires the unit to be disassembled. Again good possibility that I could not get it back together again.

All this would have made your repair beyond what would be acceptable. That’s why we offered an exchange. Return the exchange and I will see what is up with the tuning and repair and return under warranty. I will send a shipping label for the return.

If you want your original returned [while keeping the other one] I will need to treat it as an outright sale [and] we would need to charge the difference. Or if this is not acceptable you can return the exchange and I will refund your money and send your original back".

The Gentleman also provided a link for the only one he could find on ebay, from ebay Germany:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Becker-Grand-Prix-Rohrenradio-12V-Nadelstreifen-generaluberholt/122867565665?hash=item1c9b7a4461:g:3c0AAOSwB-1YqH3G

While my friend is being offered a number of options, he regrets his former radio and is not sure on what to do at this point.

What I take from this experience, is that the components described above on any of these old radios will necessarily end up failing one day or the other due to age, use and driving vibrations, and that these radios won't be reparable. It also brings the question on what is meant by sellers when they claim the radios they are selling have been fully rebuilt, like the one on the link provided above. No matter the price, won't these radios end up failing without any possibility of repair?

I have tried the aftermarket old looking radio on My Pagoda. It works OK, but I was planning to have the original radio gone through and then reinstalled. But then, given the above, how long will it last?

I would be interested in the experience of board members with these older radios, and how they would proceed if they were in my friend's shoes.

Thanks, and merry christmas to all!

 

[scoot]

I'll throw in my 2 cents.  I think that Becker Autosound in NJ is correct when they say that taking these apart is difficult.  I don't particularly think that one that is working is going to stop working.  In truth, none of us drive our cars they way we would when the radios are new -- it's not like the radios are going to get subjected to the type of real-world abuse that they would have gotten when new.

I'm not sure what he means when he says your shafts were cut and something about knobs.  That's just odd to me.

FWIW I own a very nice early Grand Prix that looks like the one in the ebay link.  It's on my list of things to sell, but as it is my favorite radio I have been hesitant to sell it.  Another pretty good option is to replace it with a small-face Europa TR.  Also not an inexpensive radio but a significantly more simple radio. 

A third option is to replace it with a small-face Europa TG.  I have one of those listed on ebay right now.  It's the only nice looking one you will find.  It sounds nice, but it's not going to sound like modern audio.  (If you want to buy a radio from me PLEASE don't do it through ebay.

If he wants the absolute top of the line radio it would be the Grand Prix.  If he wants something that looks good it would be a TR or TG.  I have all of them.   There are also a few curious sellers on ebay selling small face radios that are not what they say they are.  They are hodge-podged together from parts such that they look pretty much right but are not right.  For example a radio that has a tone arm but because of the way the radio was put together, there is no tone arm in the final result.  Several of those on ebay right now.

I would be curious as to what Becker charged for the exchange, and what they consider the core value to be. 

I also think that LOTS of people talk about "rebuilt" radios on ebay yet none of them say that they have tested them and they sound good.  There is one listing for a rebuilt radio that shows a receipt for a rebuild 20 years ago.  That to me is dishonest and misleading.  If the seller doesn't tell you how it sounds and what works and what doesn't work then the seller either has no way of testing or is just not being honest.

And for me, the absolute last option would be a modern retro radio.  I cringe when I see them.  I would much rather have a dead radio in-dash and a remote radio hidden somewhere in the car for real sound.

FWIW I did an experiment with a Europa Stereo coupled with a modern amp that turned out well and sounds good.

[mdsalemi]

The problem with all electronic repair is that there are a lot of organic items in an electronic circuit, and over the years--from time, from ozone, from heat and whatever else, these things break down.

What I'm talking about are insulation, found on nearly everything; plastics, found on and in nearly everything electronic; electrolytic capacitors, and more. Some electronics also have proprietary parts that are no longer made; the newer the radio, the more likely this is to happen. With a schematic, and even without, a skilled engineer or tech can diagnose where the problem lies but the repair isn't always feasible nor does it always makes sense. The more advanced the radio, the less likely it will be to be repairable. This is the same for most electronics of the era.

Take the famous "Fender Rhodes Electric Piano" for instance, a sound you'll instantly recognize as an essential component of many hits of the late 1960s and 1970s. There were a lot of proprietary parts in the earlier units, and today only a handful of people can repair them, usually using non-working units as a parts bin. Compare that to a 100 year old acoustic piano--no problem getting any of that repaired...but it's all mechanical and no electronics.

[Tomnistuff]

I ran into the exact same problem with the restoration of a 1969 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2.  I went looking for someone to restore a Voxson Sebring, made in Rome in the 1960's.

I found instead a company that will restore the fascia and mechanics of the display of the radio, but then install a modern 4-channel 45 watt per channel AM/FM stereo inside the original box.  There are even extras like Bluetooth and USB connectors that can be hidden elsewhere in the car, like the glovebox or under the dash.  The company is called S&M Electro-Tech, in Blaine, Minnesota.

I sent them my Voxson.  They did it and I loved it with its new powerful speakers that I replaced the originals with.  I needed the power of the new radio to overcome the sound of that V12 engine.  I took the car to Florida for Cavallino Classic XIX in 2010 and won a Platinum Trophy.  The judges never knew that the radio was not original.  I even played it for them to show it worked.

Here is the radio restoration page of their web site.

http://www.turnswitch.com/radio1.htm

Here, also, are the two Radio Pages of the history of my restoration that I created when I documented the car before selling it.  The only way I could get the Radio.doc pages to open was to save them in my downloads and open them with WORD.

Tom Kizer

[scoot]

Tom, that's very interesting. I would like to see their approach to an older Becker.

FWIW, your attachments were duplicates, and I've attached the content as a PDF for those who don't have Word.

Scott

[Pawel66]

I know this is Europe, but it is probably the best place here that I used several times: www.koenigs-klassik-radios.de. Maybe it is no harm to write to them.

[Flim]

I would endorse a conversion - I had this done to a Becker Europa a couple of years ago and am delighted with the results and the sound.

My car was fitted with a 90's Pioneer pull out radio and two awful footwell speakers when I bought it.
I obtained a good condition Europa on ebay - and had this converted to digital tuner and amplifier.

I used www.tadpoleradios.co.uk and would recommend their service.

The look and function of the radio is completely unchanged. They can include i-pod connectivity (from the rear). I have a mod that retracts the aerial when the i-pod is docked. Their upgrade also includes bluetooth connectivity.

Charles
 

[dldubois]

Tomnistuff.   I really like the idea of converting the old becker cassette I have.    The sound is poor and looks like that's a great solution and I could use my Iphone.   Awesome.   

Anyone else converted their old stereo to a more modern one?

[RonB]

To answer the question NO!

 No I would not repair any old radio today. I would and have gone with a reconversion of the old chassis. Looks exactly the same and is a "new" radio on the inside.

I went with S&M Radio. They will convert the old chasie to a new moder radio with all the feature of a memory stick and Wifi.
They work very well with 4 speaker out @ 165 watts. More than enough for our small cars.

I view a conversion that was done on a little brass face plate radio from the early 30's You could not tell it was very done, look just like the  original.

PS S&M does more than anyone else. Located at 8863 Xylitr Street NE, Blaine, MN 55449 - 763 780-2861

[Kevkeller]

How are people setting up speakers for these radios?  I have two loose ones floating on the rear ledge but don’t like it.

Any pics?

Kevin

[hkollan]

To me the answer is a YES.
What largely gives me the inspiration for owning, restoring and maintaining these car is the urge to get/recreate the  feel from the days when these cars where new. If that means one single original loudspeaker on the dash sounding through an original mono Becker exactly the way it did 50 years ago not better nor worse, that actually is rewarding to me.
I have  had a number of these radios rebuilt by Königs, the company referred to by Pawel earlier, with perfect results.

Hans

[Iconic]

I agree with Hans. He said it much better than I could. 
(I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I carry this logic into the clock also. I like to hear the "wind up" every few minutes and I would not put a quartz movement in there.)
Isn't saving the radio or the clock just like saving a Pagoda, just to a lesser extent?

[scoot]

(I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I carry this logic into the clock also. I like to hear the "wind up" every few minutes and I would not put a quartz movement in there.)
Isn't saving the radio or the clock just like saving a Pagoda, just to a lesser extent?

I think saving radios is good when practical, but I think most of us are focused on the Pagoda as something to keep pure, and the radio is an accessory.  If you really can't tell looking at it then I think replacing the guts with stuff that works is a good idea.  I've opened up an early Grand Prix and I gotta say it's a nightmare in there of stuff that is over 50 years old.  You even look at it funny and something is going to crack or break.  Can you imagine expecting the electronics on a modern Mercedes to function in 60 years?  I certainly can't. 

Being one of the people on the forum who has been most vocal in favor of keeping a Becker in the car, and most vocal against "RetroMobile" or whatever that hideous radio company is called, I do draw a large distinction between what's in front of the dash (faceplate, chrome, knobs) and what is behind the dash inside a box. 

As for the clock, I think the rebuilder says it will be good for several years and then crap out, or replace it with quartz movement.  My pagoda had a quartz movement clock and I never thought about it.  I also never had to adjust the time on it.