Blown Engine, time for some hard decisions, opinions welcome

[mbzse]

.../...The engine itself is identical AFAIK.../...

Yes, there was a difference with camshafts in some cases... 
Re: the things around the engine itself, the thermostat housing is different, and, important, the engine supports each side too.
Info on the supports, see here https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11554.0

[scoot]

Yes, there was a difference with camshafts in some cases... 

I'm wondering about the differences between the Euro-spec and US-spec engines...  On the importation documents for my 280SE I recall seeing stuff about tuning the car for US market...

[DaveB]

Re: Euro vs. US M130

On U.S. cars, the Mercedes 280SL’s M130 engine was basically the same as the one in the 280SE models, with 160 PS (118 kW) and 177 lb-ft (240 N-m) of torque (DIN; 180 bhp and 193 lb-ft SAE gross). European cars had a hotter camshaft, giving 170 PS (125 kW; 195 bhp SAE)

from https://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histories/mercedes-w113-roadster-history/4/

..I guess this information is correct because it seems a well-researched article.

[scoot]

I think the article is ambiguous.  It says the 280 SL's engine is the same as in the 280 SE model.  Which 280 SE?  US or Euro?  Are they saying that the sedan engine has 10 hp less than the Pagoda engine?  Or that all US engines have 10 hp less than all Euro engines...?  "european cars, hotter camshaft"  All, or Pagoda or sedan or...

[scoot]

I tried to figure this out in EPC and now I'm further backwards.   EPC says that the engine for a US or non-US Pagoda is 130.983, and that the part number for the camshaft is 180 051 08 35.  It further says that this part number is used in in the following engines:  M114.920,923; M130.980,981, 983, 984, 920, 921, 923, 924, 933   M180.954, 955

I'll go back to  the import documentation from Germany on my 280SE and see exactly what it is that they changed for import to the US...

[DaveB]

Not sure, but I took it to mean that all US engines have 10 hp less than all euro engines.

[johnshenry]

So I spoke with  Jim Cosgrove at Oldtimer Restorations today, and while the CA 280SE engine might be a good deal, I think we are going to look into rebuilding the original engine.  Very impressed with Jim's shop (by his website), and he is a true restorer and can do the detail work should I choose to do it.   He also has a big engine test setup and can run, and dial in an engine  before installing it in the car.  And he brought up a good point: value is always preserved if you can keep a matching numbers car.  Of course until he gets a good look at it, we won't know if it is rebuildable or not, but it does not look like the rod went through the block or the pan.    So my thoughts at this point are to get the car over to him, only about 35 mins from my house.  He threw out some numbers and it will still probably be $15k-$20k when it all done right, but I can justify that with this car.

I think I may drive my '57 VW over to his shop next week and chat with him and look around.  He lives in a very pretty New England town and it is a nice drive over there from where I live.

[Benz Dr.]

Why do people think that matching numbers equate to some sort of real value for 113's? Given the fact that you could stamp your old engine number into a factory replacement block, it doesn't add up to much.

This isn't a car that can be cloned with the objective of making it worth more. Your guy's point is OK for some cars but not for 113's - at least not yet and it may never be. He should know this about these cars.

[Shvegel]

Dan,
I am with your opinions 100 percent but the reality is the numbers matching premium has creeped over from the American Muscle cars  and has spread into Jaguar and Porsche with their Certificate of Authenticity (COA) and is just starting to spread to our cars.  I guess it is just another notch in the progression of notches of perceived value from Unrestored survivor to basket case.  We have been looking at stamped numbers on body panels etc so I guess it was just a matter of time.

First line of description:
http://car-from-uk.com/sale.php?id=76100

Middle of second paragraph:
http://oursl.com/research/113/113-eval.htm

Third bullet point:
http://www.rmsothebys.com/mc16/monaco/lots/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-pagoda/1079455?&currency=USD

[Benz Dr.]

Well....... I read through all that info and it all has the same theme. These are all places that are trying to sell cars and are placing value on something where little, or none, is even present. You can clone a 356 Speedster but not a 280SL - and why would anyone bother in the first place? This is all slick marketing by cheesy used car salesmen of '' Classic Cars. ''

My point is simple. When people start bidding 40 - 60K more for numbers matching cars, then I'll start paying attention. And, since it's not that hard to fake a bunch of stamped in numbers that are not VIN specific, not much would come of it. It might be considered false advertising but then so is the matching numbers game and no one is saying much about that right now, are they?

[Iconic]

Dan (Benz Dr.),
I have a hypothetical questions for you.
If you were buying a Pagoda, and there were two identical Pagodas for sale (that's the hypothetical part of course      ) except one was "matching numbers" and one was not.
Would you pay one Canadian cent more for the one with matching numbers? (If you say no, you are unique and there are few people that would join you on that decision.)
If you would pay one cent more, then now it is only a matter of degree how much more someone will pay for matching numbers.
The buyers determine if there is more value in matching numbers.
So, whether you agree or disagree, or believe or don't believe it, people are choosing matching numbers over non-matching numbers, or paying more for it every day.
Every individual buyer is deciding whether matching numbers is important to them and they decide how much more to pay for it if they want it. Also, they use it in decision making between alternative Pagodas.
It's not hype, or slick marketing ... it just is a fact of collector car exchanges.
It certainly played a role in my Pagoda purchases in 2009 and 2016. I read the comments on this forum about "matching numbers" not meaning anything for Pagodas and those comments made no sense to me. I would have offered less if my Anthracite car was not numbers matching and I really would not have considered buying my Blue (Grey-Blue) one at all if it didn't have matching numbers. That is me. I was the buyer. I decided what value it had to me just as any other factor, white vs black steering wheel, disk brakes vs drum, Anthracite vs Ivory, matching number vs non matching ..... the list goes on.
Take care,
Mark

[Benz Dr.]

Well.......OK. If you had your engine blow up back when your new car was still under warranty, the factory would send a new block to your dealer. This new engine came without a serial number and the dealer was supposed to stamp your previous, original number, into your new replacement block. Since this was a common and accepted practice, and it's not the original engine, how much is matching numbers really worth when one of the main pieces isn't original to the car? And, because it was acceptable to apply original serial numbers to a replacement block 50 years ago, it should still be, right?

Original numbers are good for coffee table conversations. Just like porting and polishing, the idea has more value than the actual fact. 

I'd buy the car that I liked the most that was the right color, condition and price - no two cars are identical in those respects. People may search out NM thinking it somehow makes their buy worth more and pay a small premium for it, but it will never really matter for 113's. You can't clone one of these cars and call it a special, high performance edition, like you could with a Boss 302 or a Hemi Cuda and then see a much higher price at auction. When you are talking a million dollar 300SL that was limited production, numbers start to matter. However, when we are talking about a fairly high build number of basically identical cars; not so much.

[Bonnyboy]

Just or fun...   when my Dad bought his car back in 1988 (my car now) one of the big selling features was that the original engine was replaced with a factory engine approx 25k prior so all of the "fixes" were in this engine rather than the original engine in the car next to it.   

The other car was the same year, similar mileage, same colour but it was an automatic rather than a standard but for all other purposes I assume about the same condition (lipstick on a pig type condition).   

So in 1988 for a car with 110K on it, a replacement engine was a big selling point.   No discussion about numbers matching adding value.   

Now if it was an engine from an SE there may be some value differential but considering how many engines were replaced by the factory I think the "matching numbers" thing on Pagodas is just something sales people throw out there to try to add value to the vehicle they are selling at the moment.   

[Cees Klumper]

Reminds me of Bette Midler's quote "If size doesn't matter, I'll have the bigger one thank you!"

[Benz Dr.]

Ha, that's funny!

  As our cars start to become more sought after and prices go up, a lot of the stuff from American pop culture will morf onto our stuff. Some of it has value and some of it doesn't, so I'll let the buyer decide and beware of cheesy used car salesmen.

[Shvegel]

I might agree on two of the references I listed if I knew anything about them but I am fairly certain RM / Sothebys falls outside the 'Cheesy" range.



 
 

[stickandrudderman]

Matching numbers only matter to those who are intent on spending more money than they need to.

[Benz Dr.]

I might agree on two of the references I listed if I knew anything about them but I am fairly certain RM / Sothebys falls outside the 'Cheesy" range.

Interesting you should mention RM. I live about a 1/2 drive from their Chatham Ontario headquarters. They are a world class operation but all that glitters isn't always gold. They carefully vet the really high end stuff but probably wouldn't waste their time on a lowly 280SL. To them, cars are just another commodity to be bought and sold; they have no emotional connection to anything they move. Value is in the eyes of the beholder and they make sure they make their cut from those who know what they're doing just as easily as from those who don't.