Your opinion please on a 250SL

[Steve.k]

Hello,

This is my first post here, I’ve been a full member for a few months as I’ve come here for an education on the 113.  I’ve reached that point in my life when I’m able to take care of a classic car.   

I’ve decided to own just one classic car and I’ve lusted for a W113, for several reasons. My dad had a 230SL from new when I was a kid.  He had it for a few years until the 350SL came out.   The W113 is a brilliant combination of German engineering and Teutonic styling.  They’re beautiful period pieces that are relatively safe, sporty and reliable for a classic car and I currently drive a GLC43 AMG.

I’ve been looking for a very good example that is well sorted, immediately driveable and in very good cosmetic condition.  I’m not interested in showing it, I just want a good driver that looks tidy and solid. 

 I’m set on the metallic silver or blue exterior with either blue or parchment interiors, i.e. no reds.  I’m ok with a 230,250,280 and prefer a 4 speed but that’s not a deal breaker.  My budget is about 65k, please don’t laugh. 

I came across this listing on Hemmings [urls]https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/mercedes_benz/250sl/2024850.html[/url]and had a RoadReady inspection done.   Here’s the listing and here’s the report.https://www.dropbox.com/s/l70pdth5ddswuui/RRC-tenmj.pdf?dl=0

I’m humbly soliciting your opinions on this vehicle and any advice is valued.   I welcome your thoughts on my expectations for that budget and anything else you want to say.  I’ve read many posts here and know that there are many, many knowledgeable people.  I respect your opinions on the W113 series.

I thank you all for your stewardship of this delightful machine and for providing this community. 

[wjsvb ✝︎]

Steve:  A few comments.  My car (#1953) was built likely on the same day or the day after this one.  IMHO, the early 250's are a good choice among 113's as they are slightly cleaner visually than the later cars but have the five main bearing engine and close to the same performance as the 280's.  The car you are looking at offers interesting positives: reman engine and trans (verify with receipts, talk to the builder), it's currently driveable, chrome good (again, verify!) and a straight body.  The paint and interior suit your stated desires.  Some observations:  it is possibly a euro car ("Automatic" on the rear lid), which can mean a rust history; the interior looks like vinyl, not leather, and is certainly not MB Tex.  The dash top has been recovered: rear edge is rounded with extra padding, also slightly creased.  (This is one of those things that may not bother you at all, or it may eat at you every time you see it!).  The undercoating and insulation may be covering rust, as might the trunk mat, the interior carpet and the well covers behind the seats.  Also, feel around under the front wheel wells for the section where the inner fender and the fender structure meet, as well as behind and atop the headlight buckets where dirt can build up.  The Hemmings ad calls it a "frame on" restoration which is a misnomer as there ain't no frame there.  Both tops is definitely a positive; the lack of A/C is prob. OK in your part of the world.  Finally, while the inspection covers a lot of ground, there is enough dough at stake that a PPI by someone knowledgeable of 113's still may be in order and if at all possible, you also should make the trip and see for yourself.  If you'd like to visit more, send me a PM with contact information.  Jon

[kampala]

Steve,

Welcome. 


There is a lot to take in here between the ad on Hemmings and Report / photos.   some thoughts for you.  Firstly, based on what you describing you want and the budget you have set, you should be able to find a pretty decent car.   Your timing is probably good as prices have dropped in the last year.  Many sellers have not dropped the asking price but selling prices have come down.

If you want the restoration to look close to original style (stock look) this car may not fit your needs.  If you want a restoration that looks good, but not picky about stock accuracy this may be fine.   The upholstery work is what is not matching stock look.   Seats, dash, soft top hatch (seams), carpet and more.   Again, this only matters if its important to you.    As mentioned, would it bother you once you know its not a stock look?

Do you care if the car has its original engine?  This is a 250 and the ad states it has a rebuilt 280 engine.  Only important if you care.  Some buyers / owners don't care, others do care. 

Side view mirrors on driver and passenger side are from later cars and not correct for early 250, but only matters if you are concerned about stock (original look)

Hubcaps are from later cars and not for a 250.  Some early cars use these later hubcaps as they will fit on aluminum wheels so if interested in this car, you may want to check.   Again, if this matters to you personally.

Many signs clearly point to a European Car including of course the dash gauges.   This is preferred by some but some european cars do come from cold climates so as mentioned, rust needs to checked.

Rust needs to checked for and as mentioned, especially since new undercoating has been applied.

I would be concerned about the door not closing properly.   Especially since they state a full restoration.  Maybe its only an adjustment, but this would concern me and I would want to check shut-lines etc.   

Window adjustment issues are very common on these.   You will see a lot in tech manual on this site on how to resolve this. 

I am not entirely clear on the shot of the VIN tag - it looks like it might be attached next to relays / water bottle where the body tag would be attached and not the VIN tag (on euro cars VIN tag would be on right side on firewall).  But cannot tell for sure on the photos.   This is not an issue, but would want to check the VIN under the air-intake area to make sure it matches.  Only go to this effort if you really want this car. 

Best of luck,



 

[Panzer82]

Hi Steve,

It's an exciting time for you... looking for your first Pagoda SL.

kampala makes some good points above, it all depends on what's important to you. I'm a 'driver quality' kind of guy, I don't have huge money and don't want a perfect car, or the stress that owning one would give me, so I understand what you're looking for.

In the case of this car, there are a number of things, I hate to say, that would make me walk away. #1 is probably the fact that where the VIN plate is screwed in is the place where the car's data plate should be, the little plate with the color codes, several option codes, the body number, etc. My guess is that this car's body tag is long gone and I would NEVER buy a car without a body tag or one that has the VIN plate in the wrong place, it's not even close. This also tells me that whoever did the 'restoration' probably wasn't very versed in these cars. "Frame on Restoration"? A 'frame off' is impossible on a uni-body car,

Which brings me to the inspector... he certainly was thorough in his inspection, but the form used looks like it's the same form he'd use when inspecting a used Camry. I would trust someone who is versed in Pagoda SLs, just about anyone on this forum, for example, to inspect a potential W113 purchase rather than a generalist type inspector.

I would guess this blue color is not original to the car. The back of the hood and the interior of the engine bay are black... they should be the color of the body. Scrape some of the paint off and you might find the original color.

Lastly, the price. $69,000, for this car, is insane in my opinion. For this kind of money, you can do much better.

I wrote an article about this 250SL that was sold for $71,500 at one of the high end auctions in Scottsdale a couple weeks ago.

While I'm not a huge fan of buying these cars at auction, because there are so many available on the private market where you can take your time, drive the car, visit the car in the garage where it's kept, get a feel for the owner and how they approached maintenance talk to them, etc. At least it's a similar car and a reference point of an actual, recent sale. One of the 280 SLs at that sale was far better than the car you're considering and it sold for $74,000 and change.

I sold this silver 1971 280 SL last Summer for a lady who had owned it since 1983 or so. It's a driver, not perfect. I put it on Hemmings.
This album of 200+ photos was viewed by 800+ people.
Lots of people looked at it, I eventually sold the car for $45,000. This was about 7 months ago. Again, it wasn't perfect, it's front fenders had been replaced, common for a W113, but it was a solid, good driving car with known history that the new owner could enjoy while maintaining regularly over time. It needed a new soft top, sub frame mounts, regular things. I always say just about any Pagoda needs (or could use) $5,000 worth of work.

On the open market, you've got more choice and can find a better car. Hold out for your color if you want, but maybe some other colors will grow on you. There are plenty of silver cars out there and a decent number of light blue metallic examples. And when it comes time to have an inspection done... call the local Mercedes Club section wherever the car is, find out who in their section is 'the Pagoda Guy' (every section has a few) and have someone like that, a 'w113 geek' go look at the car for you. I think they will be able to give you more informative feedback that a 158 point inspection with 'satisfactory' 'needs repair' on it.

[Steve.k]

Jon,  thank you for your reply.  The seller confirms its a European model and the speedo is in km/h which corroborates that along with the body cues.  Your advice regarding the rust is valuable.  The more I read about these cars the better I understand the rust issue and the rarity of the Euro versions.  I remember my dad's 230 was rusted through the rockers before he got the 350 and that was after only a few years (of Canadian winters and salt).
The seller claims it's a leather re-up but it doesn't appear that way in the photos and the wrinkle on the dash is a cause for concern.  I know it's a unibody so there's no frame off restoration on these.  I assume he meant it was done piecemeal. 
My biggest concerns from the PPI report is around the left door issue.  It states it's hard to close and there's a gap between the window and frame that will allow leaks and wind through.  How easily is this remedied or does it indicate a bigger issue?
The other question I have for the community is the exterior paint.  He calls it a "European Blue" but everything I've read indicates the same colors were available on both sides of the Atlantic.  It could be a 396G or 906G, but it appears more vivid than those.  Any comments?  I want a correct color.
And yes,  I won't buy a car sight unseen.  I'll definitely lay my hands on anything before dropping any dollars.
Thanks again Jon.

[Steve.k]

Panzer, thanks for the feedback.  My gut feelings are being confirmed by your comments as well as kampala and jon.  The restoration wasn't done by someone that knows these cars well.  A lot of things indicate it was put together from a lot of different vehicles. 
I'm going to walk from this one and keep looking.  As I said, I intend to own one classic car and only one.  I'd like to pass it along to my son some day, so I'm leaning more and more now to a more authentic example rather than a 'new restoration'   A proper new restoration, I know is more than double my budget, and honestly, I'm not sure I could actually enjoy driving one of those on the weekends. 
Thanks for taking the time to respond and welcome me to the group.

Stephen

[wjsvb ✝︎]

Steve: as to the door-closing issue, it's likely the result of worn or misadjusted latch parts.  I just went through mine, cleaned it thoroughly, lightly greased it and reassembled.  Now closes as it should!  Some replacement latch parts, if needed, may be unobtanium.  Of course if the metal is bent or ill-fitting, that's another story.  Jon

[Panzer82]

Hi Steve,

About colors... It's tough to tell in digital pictures sometimes, but that exterior just doesn't look 'right' to me. You can consult the resources on this website to see what data plates should be where on these cars, VIN plate placement differs depending upon year and U.S. spec cars and Euro cars had them in different places in some cases.

As a color reference, here is a link to a bunch of photos of a car I worked with a couple of years ago.

It's a 280 SL in 906 'gray blue poly' also referred to as 'light blue metallic' some years. This is a very early 280 SL... serial #9, body# 11 and engine #3, a factory show car according to its build card and the history the owner had with the car from his long ownership, further confirmed with the unique features of this car, chromed fuel injection tubes and other under hood components, black valve cover, etc. It had it's issues, poor rust repair 25+ years ago (if you look at the underside photos), but worth saving based on its history. To my eye, this car appears much 'lighter' more 'silvery blue' than the car you were considering.

If you could see the car, you've decided to pass on, in person, you could closely inspect the color of the dash, it's very possible that may be the correct color for that car... quickie 'restorations' often leave the dash original even when they repaint the exterior because it's time consuming to do the dash right. Getting the Data card from the MB Classic Center, based on the VIN, would be the only way to see what color this VIN # had originally... If that's even the original VIN plate for the car, who knows with this one. And only the title holder of the car can request that from the Classic Center.

I'll see if I can dig up photos of a car in 396G and post them here for you.

There are plenty of these fish in the sea, and frankly, the hunt is half the fun!

[waltklatt]

Steve,
Well this car might be a good one for one who is getting into the Pagodas.
A few of the more knowledgeable owners will tell you a few things are off.
Here are my observations:
-I've noticed all the heavy chrome plated brass trims with the rubber inserts on both sides are missing.
-inspector says that there is a non OEM distributor cap and coil, which are in fact the OEM's.
-over spray of white? paint on the electricals under the dash.
-muffler looks new and is hanging a bit low.
-an extra knob on the dash below the instrument cluster (flasher?) and he states there is no flasher (marked N/A) on his form.
-reupholstered in a good way, but wrinkles on dash and the soft top cover has the corners stitched instead of being continuous.
-no mention of the soft top condition nor any pictures?
-no mention or pictures of under the trunk mat-condition of metal underneath(showing dynamat).
-non original horns
-new red battery positive cable not installed correctly(close to the power steering pulley)
-suspicious undercoating near the right front frame member near muffler downpipes
-passenger footwell pan has been replaced.
-inspector does not lift the carpet/dynamat for pictures
-passenger door is missing the horseshoe chrome near the latch
-both dash vents on the dash are poorly chromed and look funny(unsure what they put as the louvers)
-drivers door showing a grab handle?
-light rheostat on instrument cluster missing the black rubber/plastic
-fuel pump cover is missing
-think original color was DB180 as the underdash near steering column is silvery looking
-tool kit is not correct for this car(wrong tire iron)
-no picture of the tire chock or ratcheting lift jack

And the comments from the others.
The door issue is that the doors are not adjusted right-both are adjusted too low.
The inspector is not an expert on these cars.

Best is to see the car in person, or get a pagoda expert to look over.
Hope this helps.
Walter

[Steve.k]

Panzer,

I thought the color was off.  I've have searched 100's of photos of the metallic blues and haven't found one like this.   Clearly it's not a very faithful restoration, and since part of my desire to own one of these relates to family heritage (mom and dad both came from Deutschland), I want one that is honest. 

This car clearly has an identity crisis.

[Steve.k]

Thanks, that's good to know.  I'll keep that in mind if I come across any others with door issues...

[Steve.k]

Walt,

Thank you for the detailed dissertation 

That's why I came here, for an education.  I love it! 

The pursuit of the right vehicle is half the fun isn't it?

Your comments confirm some of my suspicions, but many of them are great nuggets to know.  I suspect the grab handle on the door relates to the difficulty closing it.  Seems like a poor solution to the problem, and indicative of the owner's restoration acumen. 

I can't thank you all enough for your valuable advice.  My journey continues, but when I finally find her, she will be sweet. 

~Stephen

[Shvegel]

Steve,
Welcome to the group and good luck finding a dream car.  The first Yellow light is it is a Euro spec car.  European cars tended not to fair as well rust wise a SOME of the american western cars.  That alone makes me get into warning mode.  Keeping in mind that these cars had big rust issues I saw 3 things that would make me walk away.    The left side of the trunk is covered in Dynamat which is a tar like sheet with aluminum foil covering used to insulate sound and heat from the interior.  Apparently the luggage was getting too warm or they are trying to cover up a rust issue.  Number 2 is in the photo of the front wheel well at the top of the photo there appears to be two screw heads sticking out of the small square sectioned piece of metal which makes it appear as a patch was screwed over the box section to cover up corrosion.  Finally the entire underside of the car has been sprayed with truck bed liner.  Gas tank and all.  That is a dead givaway that bad things await. 

The best thing you can do for yourself is to become an expert on what an original unmolested car body looks like.  The best way to do that is to go to the Motoring Investments website ( motoringinvestments.com ) find the Mercedes page and browse cars.  Brian the owner is known for very high standards in what he sells and his notes on buying as well as the things he points out in his listings are invaluable to a new buyer.  Pay particular attention to what original undercoating looks like in terms of texture and color.  His cars have been cleaned before listing and will appear very white underneath but the texture is unique and hard to replicate.

I strongly suggest you find a W113 SL expert or at the very least an expert in that era of Mercedes.  Fly him in if you have to.  When you find the right car even $2000 spent on an inspection is cheaper than changing one panel.



 

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Hi Steve,

Welcome to our Group, you certainly came to the right place to help you with your search. I like to just add that if you do find that dream car there might be a Member in the area that can go and check it out for you unless you have the time to do so.

If you like to find out what other Members there might be in your local area or the area you find that dream car, you can do so by going to our Members area then select “View the Members List” The List can be sorted by simply clicking on “Location” once done so page thru the pages to find you area or the area the car might be. This is a very helpful tool not only to find other Members in your area, also you may like to contact a member in your area to seek advice on local shops they used or when and where they get together for a Event. In your case you might find a Member that can check that dream car out further for you.

Here —— > https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=mlist;sort=location;start=0

Another area, unless you found it already (it greatly helped me out in inspecting my car before I purchased it) you can find in our Technical Manual;

Here —— > https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/PrepurchaseEvaluation

Good Luck!

Dieter

[Steve.k]

Rolf,

Thank you for welcoming me to the group.  I’ve been researching the 113 for a long while and have pored over countless websites and listings.  This is definitely the best resource available and it’s a privilege to mingle with you.
I’ve been reading through the Technical Manual and some of the books out there plus a lot of posts here. 
It’s really cool that the experienced old heads here take the time to assist newbs like me.   
Thanks for all the advice.  It’s greatly appreciated.

Stephen