Author Topic: Manufacturers data for Pagoda top speed (Read 5325 times)

SEB · « **on:** August 02, 2020, 12:05:11 »

Gentlemen’s
In all sources like Wikipedia or this forum the top speed for the 250SL Pagoda is defined as 195 km/h.
I read today all original prospects from that time regarding each Pagoda and found out, that in case of the:
230 SL the top speed was defined by Mercedes as 200km/h, and the top speed for the
250SL and 280 SL was defined by Mercedes as ca. 200km/h.

http://oudemercedesbrochures.nl/W113_250SL_0267USA.html

So I do not understand why now in case of the 250SL the top speed is given now lower than the manufacturer has publishes at that time?

Can we correct it? At least here in the technical manual? Or can somebody explain it reasonably?
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Main/W113ModelData

Many thanks
Sebastian

MikeSimon · « **Reply #1 on:** August 02, 2020, 20:01:24 »

I think it is irrelevant. And it depends on where you look. The MB sales brochures that I have, that we discussed in another thread, show "ca 200km/h" for ALL THREE models. My German title, the "Kraftfahrzeugbrief" shows 195km/h for my 280SL

Jordan · « **Reply #2 on:** August 02, 2020, 20:53:45 »

There is certainly one way to find out.

Being in Germany and all.

Can't attempt it here (going more than 50 km/hr over the limit of 110km/hr) as it would result in a minimum $2000 fine, car impounded for 7 days, loss of license for 7 days and you have to appear in court to explain your actions, which may result in jail time and a fine up to $10,000. Not quite worth it.

wayne R · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2020, 01:58:21 »

Sebastian, i think the answer to this is the weight--to-- hp, see the 280SL is 20 hp more
than the 250SL ,230SL,and so the 230 is 60kg less in weight than the others ,i would think
that is why the weight would make that differents, remember, that 60kg is 10.1/2 stone,
thats the weight of the average woman, 20hp is not much ,but at very high speeds
its critical, example i think it was a Jaguar E type 1963 , that to acheive 150mph,
they removed the front licence plate on the last timed run, first run only achieved 149. point something.
Someone here may be able to clarify that for me. Regards.

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2020, 14:19:19 »

I think the fastest I have ever gone was 185 kph as per the GPS.
I agree we should probably change the tech manual to 200 for all models, if there is factory documentation that says so. Would there be a difference for US (emission controlled) models though? Typically they also had lower gearing, at least the 280 did, which would impact on the top speed.

SEB · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2020, 15:58:47 »

Gentlemen’s
Thank you very much for all your personal opinion. I will underline the expression personal opinion, because from the legal point of view in this case is only important the manufacturer promise for the top speed. And in case of the 250 SL was ca. 200 km/h.
So Mercedes was in all cases promising at that time, that a SL will be 200km/h (230SL) fast or ca. 200 km/h fast in case for the 250SL and 280SL.

This was the promise at that time to the final customers and only Mercedes Benz was legally responsible if this is true or not. If you are not agreed with this you can suit against Mercedes ( unfortunately I think this right is expired) or after this data for instance ca. 200km/h you can mark it with a star and below put your personal comment.

As member of the 250SL community I insist to correct the data at least in this page. This is the legal point based on the official data from Mercedes Benz from that time.

Thanks
Sebastian

SEB · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2020, 16:39:28 »

Quote from: Cees Klumper on August 03, 2020, 14:19:19

I think the fastest I have ever gone was 185 kph as per the GPS.
I agree we should probably change the tech manual to 200 for all models, if there is factory documentation that says so. Would there be a difference for US (emission controlled) models though? Typically they also had lower gearing, at least the 280 did, which would impact on the top speed.

Cess!
can you please tell me who is responsible for the tech manual on this site? If the manufacturer was at that time promising in the sales brochures the top speed for the 250SL of ca. 200 km/h we should change it.
Thanks!
Sebastian

66andBlue · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2020, 17:27:17 »

Quote from: SEB on August 03, 2020, 15:58:47

....
As member of the 250SL community I insist to correct the data at least in this page. This is the legal point based on the official data from Mercedes Benz from that time.
Thanks
Sebastian

Hi Sebastian,
it is easy to change the entry in the technical manual to suit your desires. But to be totally correct you would have to tell us to which "250SL community" you belong, those with cars having an automatic transmission or a manual gear box? If manual then is it a 5-speed, or a 4-speed with a 3.92 differential, or a 3.69 differential? They have different (official) top speeds.
It is not so easy "to dot all the is and cross all the ts".
How about adding the attached table from Engelen's book, would that satisfy your "Detailbesessenheit"?

SEB · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2020, 19:43:17 »

Hi Alfred,
Thank you very much for this interesting input to this discussion. But we should not focus to much to the details. We can lose the whole picture.

From my university time I remember, that in your law system you have such element in the sales agreement like the “promise”. We do not have this in our European legal system ( in our civil codes). And at that time Mercedes was promising, that each car has the top speed 200 km/h or ca. 200 km/h.

If in the technical data are all information given by Mercedes, so we should put also the Mercedes information from that time with the promise that a 250SL or 280SL is ca. 200 km/h fast. And this could be correct in my opinion.

Engelen published his book after. Without any legal responsibility against the customers who believed Mercedes and purchased based on this information the Pagoda.

If the technical data are based on the experience (so after- ex post) – so we should put the whole table and than is also OK. But is not fair, that in case of the 250SL we present only the worst case, See in the table: out of three versions with 200km/h, 200 km/h and 195km/h you are happy to present only the worst case? Is this fair? In my opinion not!!!

Answering your question to which community? To this Nonconformists who against any common opinion purchased the 250SL and to this who will fight for the right to be treated and also evaluated on the same level like the 230SL or 280SL.

Garry · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2020, 23:23:39 »

The Technical Manual has the generic data and to be completely correct you would need to have tables for each possible configuration for each car. E g 5/4 speed, Manual/automatic, Left hand /right hand, Roadster/California coupe/ hardtop, Steel/alloy/bunt wheels, hard top on/hard top off,
and so it goes on and on and on. The charts would be huge so a generic chart as listed i think meets the needs of the item in the Tech Manual.

Yes sure a California Coupe, with alloy wheels and 5 speed in a tail wind may even go better than 200kph

SEB · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2020, 07:06:15 »

The normal customer in fact do not expect a complicated table, but one figure. This table is rather something for the experts and even there are not all figures mentioned there- for instance the top speed of US models with the 4,08 axis?

That’s why I propose to use the figure what Mercedes used at that time in the sales brochures to convince the customers, that the 250SL is ca. 200km/h fast.

http://oudemercedesbrochures.nl/W113_250SL_0267USA.html

ghenne · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2020, 11:08:39 »

Let me add that the "ca." in the Mercedes literature is "approx". Short for "circa".

Peter van Es · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2020, 11:13:21 »

Quote from: SEB on August 03, 2020, 16:39:28

can you please tell me who is responsible for the tech manual on this site? If the manufacturer was at that time promising in the sales brochures the top speed for the 250SL of ca. 200 km/h we should change it.
Thanks!
Sebastian

Sebastian...

The Technical Manual states: https://www.sl113.org/wiki/

This material is © of the Pagoda SL Group. You are allowed to post links to our material, but you are not allowed to copy this information in whole or in part.

In order to update data on this site, you will need to be a Full Member of the Pagoda SL Group.

and This is a work in progress. At any time data may be incorrect, incomplete or even plain misleading. Due to the nature of Wiki development things may get worse before they get better. You use this information entirely at your own risk, the Pagoda SL Group takes no responsibility.

So, we as full members are all responsible for the tech manual on this site. Regrettably the table on the page you refer to is an image, i.e. it cannot be easily edited. I can tell you who uploaded it, but I do not know where it came from.

If you were to invest some time, and familiarise yourself with how to convert this to an editable table in the Wiki (it's eminently doable) you could add the table instead of the image and correct the top speed. But even then, it would only be your opinion of the truth based on marketing material of the time.

Peter

MikeSimon · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2020, 12:03:52 »

I really do not see what the problem is. Nobody in the world would see a 250SL as a lesser car, just because the rated top speed was lower than that of a 230SL or 280SL - if it was, that is.
And as far as the factory numbers are concerned....who really has ever truly believed factory numbers as being correct? There is a plethora of contemporary test data available which will show real world numbers.
Please consider one thing: The horsepower of an internal combustion engine will in fact vary by up to 5% from the rated number. (that's why some engine builders "blueprint" motors). In case of my 280SL, which was rated at 170hp, the actual output could be anywhere from 162 to 178hp. And that is measured at the crank! Guess what effect that will have on the actual top speed...

neelyrc · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2020, 00:27:42 »

A lot of discussion about brochures. My original owners manual delivered with the car indicates:

Top speed:
Approximately 118 mph (ca. 190 km/h)

SEB · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2020, 10:06:30 »

Gentlemen’s
To make the long story short:
We have two data related with the top speed for the 250 SL European model published by Mercedes Benz:

1. In the sales brochure- so in the offer addressed to all potential customers Mercedes Benz is promising as top speed ca. 200km/h.

2. In the user manual- so after the customer purchased the car he is realizing, that the top speed is now 195km/h. ( I mean with the normal axis, because with the 5 Speed ZF gearbox or the 3,69 axis to top speed was 200 km/h).

Interesting marketing approach.

jharkin · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2020, 17:44:56 »

I just purchased a 1968 US spec Standard transmission 250 SL with 142,000 miles on the odometer. On the drive home from the delivery point the car managed to achieve 80 mph without any push from me. Towards the end of the drive something popped and squealed and I could smell burning rubber. Once home I found a dried out broken alternator(?) belt. But for a 52-year-old car that can do 80 mph effortlessly, under bad circumstances, I don’t give a fig what Mercedes claimed in 1968. She still goes real good, that’s all that matters to me. Now she goes to the shop and gets the attention she deserves.

Apologies for hijacking various threads just so I can talk about this car.

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2020, 21:07:35 »

My car has been up to 130MPH or very close. I won't say where or when this happened or who was driving the car at the time of the offense though. It is indeed a red rocket.

Bonnyboy · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2020, 23:23:19 »

My car has been confirmed at 126 mph+ (201 kph) and we think it is fairly accurate as it was recorded on the speeding ticket handed to my Dad. He figured he was up over 130 mph as he got the ticket when he was starting to slow down on the approach to New Hazelton BC. (check google maps - nice straight stretch to "let them ponies run".

The year was 1988, late August approx. 7:00 am on a lonely stretch of highway in Northern BC, Canada, hardtop on, 3.69 rear end, Euro model, standard transmission, approx. 20,000 miles on a replacement engine from Mercedes and brand new Pirellis - car was "intentionally parked" that day which turned out to be for 20+ years...…..

I don't think I'd try it now.

neelyrc · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2020, 02:09:35 »

Quote from: SEB on August 05, 2020, 10:06:30

Gentlemen’s
To make the long story short:
We have two data related with the top speed for the 250 SL European model published by Mercedes Benz:

1. In the sales brochure- so in the offer addressed to all potential customers Mercedes Benz is promising as top speed ca. 200km/h.

2. In the user manual- so after the customer purchased the car he is realizing, that the top speed is now 195km/h. ( I mean with the normal axis, because with the 5 Speed ZF gearbox or the 3,69 axis to top speed was 200 km/h).

Interesting marketing approach.

It seems as if this pre and post purchase top speed indication of 50 years ago is an important matter to you. That is okay. I can say that I purchased my car new and I waited a few months for the factory delivery in 1969. I can assure you that the indication of top speed printed in the brochure was not a factor in the purchase.

If the brochure had indicated a top speed of 215 km/hr or 185/km per hour it would have made no difference. There were many other reasons to buy. I am pretty sure that most of the other 48,000+ purchasers of a new Pagoda were not very worried about the printed top speed number either.

Who knows what the real number is? Many years ago I did drive mine near the limit a few times with great satisfaction. IMHO the printed numbers were not and are not something to fret to much about.

SEB · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2020, 10:37:06 »

Gentlemen’s
Thank you very much for all your interesting inputs and comments.

At that time the top speed of 200km/h was a kind of supersonic barrier- so it looks, that it was an important argument for Mercedes to use it in each sales brochure. Even if the car was only scratching on this barrier- that’s why they used the expression ca. 200km/h (ca. = approximately).

My problem is not the top speed of each car or policy of Mercedes from that time, but the present market evaluation of each model.

From some reasons the 250SL is not so popular today at least in Germany and is valuated compare to a 280SL with more than 25% discount.

I try to find the reason why?

Best wishes
Sebastian

JamesL · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2020, 11:08:23 »

Why is Tesla the most “valuable” car company on earth when it’s never made a profit?

SEB, markets are irrational, you can search til you are blue but I doubt you’ll be able to pin down a “reason”, at least not a rational one. For your own sanity, give up that quest and enjoy what you have. Relish in the underdog...

TheEngineer · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2020, 22:10:22 »

Gentlemen: As an apprenticed mechanic and a graduate engineer and a State licensed engineer I'd like to bring your attention to the important differences between the "real German" 280 SL and the US version: First, Engine performance: the German version has an 09 cam. More lift and longer opening times (big time) I have installed such a cam in my car and found considerable more power, both at low and high RPM. Second: on the 300 SL models Mercedes supplied different rear axle ratios for different applications. For higher top speeds, a lower ratio was supplied. On the US version of our cars 4.08 was supplied. With that ratio the engine would turn almost 8,000 rpm at 200 km/hr. The power curve falls off at that rpm. I installed an axle with 3.27 ratio and at 63.5 MPH (100 km/hr) the engine turns 3100 rpm. At 200 km/hr it would turn 6200 rpm which is just about right for maximum power. But I have never tested that. The road to Snoqualmie pass has a speed limit of 70MPH but it goes uphill. Most cars can't do the speed limit on the uphill stretches. My car has no problems. I am not incriminating myself here.

MikeSimon · « **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2020, 13:00:01 »

All this shows that there are too many variables among different and even the same models. Again, i do not understand why it matters what the top speed of a Pagoda is. Nobody I have ever met, even just after I bought my car in 1982, has ever brought that issue up. My 1971 German spec 280SL has an 02 cam. The MB brochure says 200km/h and the German title issued on December 16, 1970 says 195km/h. At least back then, German titles stated max hp and top speed along with engine serial number and other data.

Pawel66 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2020, 13:59:27 »

Quote from: SEB on August 06, 2020, 10:37:06

Gentlemen’s
Thank you very much for all your interesting inputs and comments.

At that time the top speed of 200km/h was a kind of supersonic barrier- so it looks, that it was an important argument for Mercedes to use it in each sales brochure. Even if the car was only scratching on this barrier- that’s why they used the expression ca. 200km/h (ca. = approximately).

My problem is not the top speed of each car or policy of Mercedes from that time, but the present market evaluation of each model.

From some reasons the 250SL is not so popular today at least in Germany and is valuated compare to a 280SL with more than 25% discount.

I try to find the reason why?

Best wishes
Sebastian

Sebastian, I am 10000% sure this difference in today's valuation is not because of top speed being 200 or 195km/h.

There are many articles and posts about it. 230Sl and 280Sl are usually more valued than 250SL. Some say 230SL is attractive as it is the primary design, light, genuine, 280SL is a perfected design, more powerful, with better brakes. 250SL is something in between and only a few prefer it.

News:

Author Topic: Manufacturers data for Pagoda top speed (Read 5325 times)

wayne R