Author Topic: Ebay Pagoda's  (Read 8027 times)

norton

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Ebay Pagoda's
« on: October 11, 2004, 03:45:23 »
Seeing the amount of 113's on Ebay, I wonder if we should somehow save the info, photo's and vin numbers in the group data base. :?:

Douglas

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2004, 10:13:23 »
We do have someone doing that.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

norton

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2004, 13:51:22 »
Is this info available to every one?

Ben

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2004, 03:42:17 »
I looked at 2 yesterday on UK eBay that were badly misdescribed. I emailed the seller and got poor replies back.

One said 1967 250SL "one of only 200 remaining" ??  The seller says he got this info from MB directly !!     GARBAGE IMO!

The second 230SL had a 280 engine but showed a 230 engine number !!

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

Douglas

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2004, 23:28:02 »
Is it just me or does it seem like the car dealers (Schmitt, Aventura, et al) are having a hard time of it on ebay? Some of those cars just seem to be perpetually on the block, week after week. Surely, it can't be helping their cause to see something languishing like that. Even a good car would seem less appealing in that light.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

rob walker

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2004, 05:08:49 »
Ben, for 250s, whilst the 200 left is somewhat dubious, that 250SL does seem to be a nice car and a very good price if one is looking for a LHD model.
Just a shame I have just spent 2 weeks in the UK and did not see this one and am now back in Korea! :( .
Rob

Rob Walker

Kenneth Gear

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2004, 05:54:57 »
Douglas,

I was wondering the same thing.  There a few cars that have been listed for months.  I think most of those delaers have no intention of selling through ebay, rather they use it as an advertising tool. Is it me or does it seem like the market cooled just a bit lately for 113's?

Ken G
1971 280 SL Silver/red

Ben

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2004, 06:16:36 »
quote:
Ben, for 250s, whilst the 200 left is somewhat dubious, that 250SL does seem to be a nice car and a very good price if one is looking for a LHD model


........yes Rob I agree it does appear nice but to try and fool folk into thinking its as rare as a Bugatti or similar is a bit OTT !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

hauser

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2004, 18:38:41 »
Got some pics on one of the ebay cars today.  There is one 1970 280sl 4spd that I requested more pics from the seller.  I was very specific as to what I was looking for.  The car looks great on the outside but when I saw what was under its pretty face. :x

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

Richard Madison

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2004, 07:50:15 »
Not sure who’s collecting VIN numbers for the database but I have a list of VIN’s from eBay sales, from For Sale sites, books, etc.

I was trying to find out how many Pagodas came with manual transmission and if the percentage of manual trannys changed from model to model. The conventional wisdom was that the later Pagodas had fewer manual transmissions.

I did not collect exterior color and did not save photos. Colors are often not specified, might be changed from original, and some are not originally available colors. Photos take up too much room.

A year ago, I had enough VIN’s to make some conclusions so I stopped collecting the data. Some cars on the list did not indicate the type of transmission and did not have complete VIN’s. They are included but not counted in the percentage figures.

Here are the totals of my “research” list with percent manual for those interested:

230 SL: 32 cars; Tranny specified: 31; Auto: 14;  Manual: 17 = 54%

250 SL: 9 cars; Tranny specified: 9;  Auto: 5;  Manual: 4 = 44%

280 SL: 171 cars; Tranny specified: 152;  Auto:120;  Manual: 32 = 26%

I concluded that indeed the percentage of manuals drops as the years go by; that many more 280 SL’s are for sale than other models, that it may be a little difficult to find a 1971 280 SL with manual transmission (manual is in about 3 in 20 cars).

Even within the 280 SL model group, the percentage of manuals drops as the years go by.

Approximate percentage of manual transmissions by year for 280 SL:

1968:  43%
1969:  37%
1970:  16%
1971:  14%

Richard M
1969 280 SL, Tunis Beige, Euro Model (Italy).

Ed Cave

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2004, 17:53:52 »
I just noticed Schmitt currently has (6) different SL's offered on ebay which have collectively amassed a total of ZERO (0) bids.

When I first began my search for a Pagoda a little over a year ago, I saw one of Schmitt's on ebay that, to my very novice and untrained eye, looked really good. Rather than fly up there to see it for myself, I engaged a knowledgeable mechanic to go to Schmitt's to evaluate it for me. He found a couple of dozen negative things from a very wet rear end to inoperable turn signals, etc, etc.

Naturally, I got over my enthusiasm for that car and moved on but learned without question that having a knowledgeable person review a potential purchase is always money well spent.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA

1964 356C
1971 280SL

Douglas

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2005, 20:14:48 »
I love how Schmitt has a 280 SL on ebay right now that has a supposed 46K on the odometer, records, and one owner -- but they can't confirm the actual mileage. How does that happen?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

TA250SL

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2005, 23:54:45 »
What's the story on Schmitt.  At any given time they have several 113's on EBay.  Has anyone visited their collection or purchased one of their cars?  Do they perform restorations or just resell cars?


Tom
1967 250SL
Los Angeles

mdsalemi

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2005, 07:05:16 »
quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

I love how Schmitt has a 280 SL on ebay right now that has a supposed 46K on the odometer, records, and one owner -- but they can't confirm the actual mileage. How does that happen?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220



I've got a theory which most don't subscribe to, and even a few would vehemently deny.  MOST--that's the majority--of our 35+ year old cars, no matter how many owners there have been, simply can't verify EXACTLY what has been done to the car over the years.  Even if you are the original owner--do you remember that 15,000 mile service performed in 1970?  Did you stand over the mechanic and watch exactly what was done?  Memories have faded even for original owners.  Even work done only at an MB dealer is no 100% guarantee it was done correctly.  Most of our cars have had multiple owners, and it is almost impossible to trace the complete ownership.

In the case of the Schmitt 46K mileage, there is no way for them to legally PROVE that the 46K is 100% legitimate.  Maybe the odo flipped over.  Maybe twice.  Maybe the speedo was disconnected in 1982 for a couple of years.  Maybe the speedo was changed in "the late 1970's".  They can neither confirm or deny anything about the mileage so by law (they are a dealer) they can't verify it.

I don't know them, but it does not look like they do any restoration, it looks simply like a high end used car lot.  eBay is a way to keep their inventory available to those who search for such things.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Douglas

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2005, 07:31:53 »
Here's another theory: 95% of the low-mileage cars out there are not legit. On a car of this age, low miles are generally a purely psychological advantage and many sellers attempt to exploit this fact. Anyone who would buy a heavily restored supposedly low-mileage Pagoda such as the one I cited has been seduced by an odometer. Is it a good car? Perhaps. Do impressive but unverifiable claims make the car and dealer suspect to me on more than one level? Definitely.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

plumzany

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2005, 07:45:10 »
I Live in St Louis and would be happy to check out any W113 in this area for sale.  Not really an 'Expert' but own a E320W & 230SL now (just putting it back together from paint shop), and have had a 250SL,  several 300CD's and 2 500SEC's.  I know Rust!  

Cheers
MArty
 
1965 230SL
1965 Pontiac GTO
1999 E320W
2004 Prius (Wife's, she traded ML320 for it, now wants a new 'R-class')

rwmastel

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2005, 14:33:15 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

I've got a theory which most don't subscribe to, and even a few would vehemently deny.  MOST--that's the majority--of our 35+ year old cars, no matter how many owners there have been, simply can't verify EXACTLY what has been done to the car over the years.
Michael,
I believe that's the advantage of having service and repair records, as they would show the gradual change in milage over time at every service or repair.  I have not looked at the auctions that Doug mentioned, but he said this 46,000 mile car had records.  These records should not only verify (prove?) the milage, but also verify the claim of "one-owner".

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
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1966 230SL auto "Italian"

mdsalemi

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2005, 17:30:51 »
Rodd, you are right.  However, today's detailed service and repair records simply did not exist way back when.  I have some original parts invoices, etc. and they are quite sparse.  Even the original bill of sale for my car doesn't quite indicate whether the car was new or used; it does not even indicate mileage!  It just has my uncle's name and the VIN, date and price.  Nothing else.  Was Drexel Motors in Pennsylvania a Mercedes dealer?  Dunno.  The reporting and recording requirements of the 1960's and 1970's were not up to today's legally mandated requirements.  In fact, it was BECAUSE of this kind of spareness in detail that things are much improved today.

The only legal way of proving ownership is with titles.  Most states did not have titles back in the 1960's and as states required them, those original owners--as my uncle's car was--were not required to get them.  So, my car never had a title until I got one in Michigan.

Not every service invoice from way back when would indicate mileage.  Without the benefit of computers, things got left off.  And what of restored cars?  Any service records that I might have in my pile--including parts invoices--are simply irrelevant.  I am not the only one with a restored vehicle!

The point of all this is as I stated--memories are short.  We simply don't know exactly what was done to these cars.  Even if you stood over the mechanic in 1970, did you know what you were looking at?  Except in the case of the rare 113 with a long list of detailed service work, trust your own judgement and do a darn good inspection before buying one--particularly from dealers that can doll up a dog to the unwitting buyer.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Douglas

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2005, 17:52:13 »
Michael,

My Directory of Mercedes Dealers from April of 1968 does not show Drexel Motors as a dealership.

I think we're all actually on the same page here. Most of us know a good Pagoda when we see one. Take a look at that 6.3 for sale that Ken posted. That's a terrific example of a car worth owning. It's not about some low number on the odometer. The whole thing is consistent in its appearance, upkeep and records.

Memories may be short, but the car should ultimately speak for itself.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

mdsalemi

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Re: Ebay Pagoda's
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2005, 06:03:11 »
quote:
Originally posted by Douglas

Michael,

My Directory of Mercedes Dealers from April of 1968 does not show Drexel Motors as a dealership.

I think we're all actually on the same page here. Most of us know a good Pagoda when we see one. Take a look at that 6.3 for sale that Ken posted. That's a terrific example of a car worth owning. It's not about some low number on the odometer. The whole thing is consistent in its appearance, upkeep and records.

Memories may be short, but the car should ultimately speak for itself.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220



I didn't think Drexel was a dealer.  I do know they were a Simca dealer, though, as that's what the invoice says.  I suspected the car was purchased "gently used" as it was NOT from a dealer; was made in January of 1969, yet made its way from Germany, to the USA, to a dealer, to an owner, and then ended up as a "used car" and my Uncle bought it in July of 1969.  Certainly was not owned by the original owner for very long.  The story I heard was that he was looking for something specific (color?  auto trans?) and that's where he found it.  Interestingly the invoice tells little.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV