for a brief moment I felt a Pagoda

[Ed Fisher]

Good morning all:

I took some pictures last night.  One of them is from my WRD showing the spacer.  The thermostat tower had calibration paint on the screws before I took it apart so I believe it to be new.  It will probably work just fine when I figure out the hose routing.  The photo of the throttle body shows the output hose connected.  The photo entitled “throttle body plug” is what I found when I removed the throttle body.  I am pretty sure that a spark plug doesn’t go there…  now you know what I am up against.  Anyone know how I can connect this?  George, I appreciate the image that you sent.  My car has no tube near the thermostat or front of engine.  I may try to find a “Y” fitting, so that flow will be unimpeded.  I was just hoping someone had seen a 280se engine in a 230sl chassis and remembered the output side of the throttle body being routed into a water flow fitting (just kidding).

Naj found my distributor, and sent me a file with the proper settings for that distributor.  Thanks Naj.  It confirmed that my car wants to be advanced further than 30º at 3000 rpms.  Armed with the correct data I will set it up correctly when I get the throttle body cleaned and reinstalled.

My wounds are healing, so I can get back at it.

Ed


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[George Davis]

Ed,

I think I understand now.  Does your distributor cap have seven terminals?  I see where the 7th plug wire goes, I'll bet hooking it up will solve all problems !  I got a good laugh from the "plug" photo, looks like something I would have done 20 years ago.  Now, of course, I'd use an Allen head screw 'cause it looks better.

On a more serious note, the spacer in the WRD is correct, or at least my car and I believe most others have it, too.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Naj ✝︎]

Ed,
This picture might help:



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naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[Ed Fisher]

Thanks George.  I was hoping someone would get a chuckle.  After turning the screws on the throttle body about 1mm before turning wrench/body for a new fit I wasn't too amused Saturday night when I found the "plug".  Now it seems more humorous.  I will take a couple of pictures of the front of my engine tonight Naj, it doesn’t have the handy little pipe, at least not that I have seen yet.  The saga continues.

Ed

[Ed Fisher]

Good morning all:

I took a couple of pictures to clarify what engine/chassis mix I have a little further.  However, I do believe that Naj is spot on with a 1970/71 280SE engine.  The shot of the thermostat area verified I have no pipe in the front of the engine, darn.  After looking at the throttle body closer last night, I will need a "T" that has 5/8" at 2 ends and a 1/2" at the "T".  May have to custom make something.

The driver’s side engine shot is for reference.  If anyone sees anything that jumps out at them please let me know.

The Mercedes home shot is to let everyone know that the car has found a resting place in caring hands, if not competent.

Ed


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[Ben]

quote:The photo entitled “throttle body plug” is what I found when I removed the throttle body. I am pretty sure that a spark plug doesn’t go there… now you know what I am up against

........at least its a Bosch plug !!  

Seriously I have been following this and I think we all sympathise as it can be hard to determine what is correct/original after all these years. The advice is good and you are getting places !

As you've discovered, if the WRD doesn't shut properly you will have excess air so adjusting the idle screw at the manifold will have little effect. The little spacer here is important as with it removed the device acts as though the car is warm and if so it will drive well, but if starting and idling from cold ......well obviously it doesn't work out well.

I have this little spacer, or at least A spacer here on my '64 230SL (white with alloys also    ). I'm not sure its correct as there was none there when I first got the car. I havent heard of any 280SL owners reporting this feature and wondered if indeed you actually HAVE the correct WRD for this engine ?

Maybe the experts can chime in here ? Also can the exopensive 230SL 'stat be replaced by the later 280 one succesfully ??

Also can other 280SL owners let us know what set up they have in relation to the banjo fitting and collant pipes ? The earlier cars are obvioulsy slightly different here !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Ed Fisher]

Good afternoon all.

I found a “T” that was 5/8” on either end with a 1/2” coming in and I successfully routed the throttle body output line into the flowing coolant via a heater hose.  Thank goodness for the small parts stores that still have men working that know their books/stock. The WRD works now!  The car is smooth, shifts well, and responds nicely.  It does however, shift into first gear at every stop.  I believe it is supposed to only downshift to 2nd.  Any ideas?

The vacuum advance is not hooked up, as it still stalls the car.  I will try to work on that a little later.  Is the vacuum advance diaphram on the distributor adjustable?  

The timing is correctly set to 40º (thanks Naj), and idles reasonably well, albeit fast out of gear, but it settles down and stays running in gear.  A definite improvement from where it was.

This has been an adventure and I appreciate all of the help.  Will report back as I learn more.  Thank you all for the support and the assistance.  I would not have figured out any of this without you.

Ed

[George Davis]

Ed,

thanks for the updates, always interesting to hear how things work out.  Glad things are working out.

Seems to me the 4-speed automatics used in sedans (1968 and later, maybe?) started out in 1st instead of 2nd.  Perhaps you have one of them?

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by George Davis

Seems to me the 4-speed automatics used in sedans (1968 and later, maybe?) started out in 1st instead of 2nd.  Perhaps you have one of them?

Good point, George.  You should be able to find an ID plate on the lower edge of one side of the transmission.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Ed Fisher]

I'll take a look at the tranny number(s) and report back guys.  Thanks for the idea.  It shifts out of 1st gear at the slightest rolling of the car with no acceleration, and squeaks the tires with acceleration.  Kind of cool, but hard on a 40 year old drive train.

Here is the best news:  I believe I am over 8mpg now!  Man, that was expensive for awhile there.

Ed

[ja17]

Hello Ed,
The later sedan transmission is easily identifiable, it has a four bolt oil pan instead of a 16 bolt, the shift pattern is backwards from a W113 and there is no three position solenoid.

I would suspect that your car needs to have the venturi switch or the three position solenoid linkage adjusted.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Ed Fisher]

Thanks Joe:  I do have the 3-position solenoid.  I’ll do some reading on adjusting it.  I have the venturi closed until it is just out from where it wants to bind.  Should I adjust it out a little from there?  I still have not gotten enough air in there yet to be able to turn my air valve out and get it to come past peak.  It wants more and more air.  Appreciate your post.  Ed

P.S.  I grew up in Akron, Oh.  Perhaps one day I’ll make it to Blacklick for a tech session.  

[ja17]

Hello Ed,
Yes plan a visit if your ever in the area!

Leave the venturi flap closed as far as possible without binding. Then check the operation of the switch and three position solenoid.

These injection systems wear "rich" with age. Try removing a shim from the cold running  device or adjusting the idle mixture screw  (injection pump)out a few notches (engine off!)until the air screw on the intake begins to work properly.
The engine linkages should be checked for correctness first.

Remember The venturi switch (at intake) must cause the three position solenoid to go to the extreme "down position" at idle if the switch is operating correctly. The switch is adjustable by loosening the bolts and twisting it.


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Here is a good description of the transmission solenoid and modulator adjustment:

"The K4A 025 transmission can be adjusted to shift smooth: There is a 3-position solenoid on the top of the transmission which actuates a push rod that goes to the modulating valve. It is accessible by removing an oval cover on the right side of the transmission tunnel forward of the passenger seat. First, disable running of the fuel pump by removing fuse no.4. This is only to reduce the annoyance of a running pump. Observe the push rod and turn on the ignition. The push rod should shift aft. Now, depress the gas pedal about half way: The push rod should travel to the mid position. (Same position as with ignition off). With the toe of your left foot reach under the gas pedal and depress the kick down switch: The push rod should move forward. That forward move is what triggers the downshift of the transmission. If the rod is adjusted too long, it won’t shift down by actuating the kick down switch. If the solenoid does not move the push rod, you must fix that first. You may need to run the engine to get the system voltage up, for the solenoid to shift. Next, connect a 60-PSI scale pressure gage to the modulator pressure port. You will need a banjo fitting with a M8 bolt. This is a good time to check your modulator pressure: It should be about 40 PSI with the vacuum line disconnected and the engine running at fast idle. No vacuum to the transmission simulates max. Engine load. With the engine idling observe the pressure gage. Shorten the push rod until the pressure rises, then lengthen the push rod until the pressure drops. This sets the push rod to the pressure transition point. As a result, when you start driving and the transmission is in 2nd gear, and you accelerate to about 2800 rpm and then take your foot off the gas, the transmission will shift up smoothly."

***This information came from Vintage Reprint No. 1 of The Star.
 
 
 


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Ed Fisher]

Thanks Joe.  My bet is on the venturi switch since the car upshifts, downshifts, and kicks-down beautifully.  It is just barely going into first gear at the stop, so the bakelite switch would be a good candidate for a place to start.  Hopefully, I’ll get to it this weekend.

My injection pump is brand newly rebuilt.  The WRD looks new, the gas tank, fuel filter, and fuel pump are new as well.  I don’t think anything has had a chance to be worn in yet, as this was all just replaced before the previous owner sold.  I think at least part of the problem is the fast idle, due to no vacuum advance being hooked up.  At this idle speed, I can’t imagine being able to finesse the adjustments.  I have tried to lean out the pump (with engine off! #61514;) but to no avail.  It will stall in gear if the pump is leaned out too far, so I richened it back in from there.  When I hook up the vacuum advance it pulls down the timing by more than the 18-20º that it should (thanks to Naj I now know that spec for my distributor) and stalls the car.  Now I am wondering if something is a little off in the distributor.  I’ll keep pecking away, and with the help on this list may get a decent running car in the end.  As of now, it drives pretty darned nicely, and my learning has grown exponentially (my confidence, not so much so).  This car has humbled me, but I don’t mind being humbled.  

As an aside, I took my grandkids out in it Saturday (ages 5 and 3), for a little 2 mile jaunt on country roads.  They loved “Cappa’s” “vertible”.  That made all of the burns, scrapes, lacerations, and bonks on the noggin worthwhile.  Life is good.

Ed