Judging Pagodas

[Jonny B]

Gotta jump in here. I have been judging at MBCA for quite some time, and there is always room for interpretation. There is no way that everyone can know about the details of every car. I am reasonably knowledgeable about the Pagodas, but if in doubt will usually defer to the entrant. For the speakers mounted in the kick panels I would not deduct a point. I also would not deduct for seat belts. For the rear lights I would deduct if the lights are not correct for the year. Yes, they are not as bright as today's lights, but they are still workable and useable for today. The judging standard for MBCA is "how it left the factory" with the allowance for safety.

Regarding the ongoing discussion about "Classic" Dan is fully correct in that there are very specific rules for ACCA etc for what a "Full Classic" is. The best compromise I have seen is to use the word "classic" with the lower case "c" for the generic term of "classic car". It is just kind of silly to get all hung up on using the generic term.

Judging for MBCA (I judge and teach judging for MBCA) and we try to be as objective as possible.

If the entrant can produce evidence for something different than what we think, I am more than willing to understand what it is, as it will help me to become more knowledgeable about the cars. But I do want to see the evidence.

As for the "politics" I really try to avoid that as much as possible (very, very difficult, to avoid fully). I really don't care if a car was trailered, driven, flown in, or set in place by transporter beam. It is how the car presents versus other cars on the day of the concours.

[mdsalemi]

Imagine,  some kooky hick from the backwoods of rural Ontario knowing anything at all. You, of all people, should know what a real Classic Car is. The fact that too many today seem to get this wrong and continue to pepetuate this doesn't change the facts nor take away that you don't care. You just have to be right about everything, don't you? 

Dan, you are simply not listening.

Go back to post #1, and tell me what Classic vs classic, and second, your interpretation that a Concours has to be ONLY for Classic (notice the capital C) cars brings to Roland's issue. The first may be generally accepted, but not from everyone. The second about your interpretation of Concours is simply NOT TRUE. Don't shoot the messenger Dan, I don't make this stuff up. You go tell Pebble or Ville d'Este that they are not Concours because they don't only have cars from the list. Come on, Dan. The discussion of Classic vs. classic added nothing to Roland's issue, and just brought up some kind of history that many believe, but not everyone. Your bit about what a Concours is doesn't make a whit of sense, and simply doesn't hold true for any Concours mentioned here which is a sound representation.

It has nothing to do with "me being right"; I'm stating some facts. The facts are correct.

And before you start answering and quoting again, Dan, go back to the beginning: JUDGING PAGODAS. Do you have something to add to Roland's situation?

[mdsalemi]

Gotta jump in here.

THANK YOU!

[Benz Dr.]

Thanks, Johnny I agree with you.  Has there been any attempt to set in place a judging standard for 113 cars? Taking into account all of the variables one would find it could be an interesting exercise. Perhaps the basic requirements first and then finer points as we go along.

I guess until we start having events that include Concours judging it will have to wait.

Club cars that I've seen judged usually went into street driven and Concours. Good chance to learn and teach at the same time.   

[John Betsch - "SADIE"]

Thought Id throw this into the discussion.  It is an excerpt from an online posting from the Audrain Musuem in Newport explaining a new class at their Concours in October:

“This year, at the 2021 Concours d’Elegance, which takes place on October 3rd, we will be reintroduced to the Luxury Class…  The Luxury Class, as all others in the Concours, will be judged by a panel of well-informed, international automotive experts. They will follow what is often called "French" judging. This will involve determining how each entry exemplifies the true meaning of the category in which it is placed, be it history, sport, and for this class, luxury. Of course, originality and condition are very important, but how the car draws us in to make an emotional connection is equally interesting.”

[Benz Dr.]

Dan, you are simply not listening.

Go back to post #1, and tell me what Classic vs classic, and second, your interpretation that a Concours has to be ONLY for Classic (notice the capital C) cars brings to Roland's issue. The first may be generally accepted, but not from everyone. The second about your interpretation of Concours is simply NOT TRUE. Don't shoot the messenger Dan, I don't make this stuff up. You go tell Pebble or Ville d'Este that they are not Concours because they don't only have cars from the list. Come on, Dan. The discussion of Classic vs. classic added nothing to Roland's issue, and just brought up some kind of history that many believe, but not everyone. Your bit about what a Concours is doesn't make a whit of sense, and simply doesn't hold true for any Concours I know about.

What are you going on about? Best of show has been traditionally reserved for Full Classic cars. All other cars are either judged or are on display but are still part of the Concours weekend. I've been to Meadowbrook several times and COA three times; did I see something you didn't see?
You supplied the list of Full Classic cars and now you deny their existence?

 Either I haven't explained myself well enough ( even though others seem to get it ) or you're incapable of understanding complex issues. Was I wrong to think that you know about everything?

Rolland was upset because he didn't feel as though the judging was fair at an event he went to. I don't think it was fair either but no one can change that now. I think his point was well taken and received an adequate response from other members. Or did I not get that either?

[Benz Dr.]

Thought Id throw this into the discussion.  It is an excerpt from an online posting from the Audrain Musuem in Newport explaining a new class at their Concours in October:

“This year, at the 2021 Concours d’Elegance, which takes place on October 3rd, we will be reintroduced to the Luxury Class…  The Luxury Class, as all others in the Concours, will be judged by a panel of well-informed, international automotive experts. They will follow what is often called "French" judging. This will involve determining how each entry exemplifies the true meaning of the category in which it is placed, be it history, sport, and for this class, luxury. Of course, originality and condition are very important, but how the car draws us in to make an emotional connection is equally interesting.”

Sure. These events are constantly changing in an attempt to keep the show fresh and interesting to as wide an audience as possible. All of the cars on the field are part of the overall experience be they Full Classics or American hot rods from the 50s.

When we went to the 50th-anniversary event, I French judged all the cars present and it didn't take me too long to see the nicest one there. Ray Hays green California Coupe is still the finest example I've ever seen to date.

 

[Shvegel]

Allow me to wade in here and offer my opinion.  Just kidding.  I am not going near this one.

[stickandrudderman]

I never go to pubs or clubs that have "Bouncers" on the door because I refuse to subject myself to the scrutiny of those unqualified to do so.
I've never attended a judging event but I suspect I wouldn't like it for the same reason.

[MikeSimon]

  I refuse to subject myself to the scrutiny of those unqualified to do so.
I've never attended a judging event but I suspect I wouldn't like it for the same reason.

Great statement! My sentiments exactly.

[Bonnyboy]

Years ago when attending a concours show with the local Jaguar/MG club I put my freshly restored MGB into the Judging class.    My freshly restored car got last place in its class with a 73 points out of 100.   I was shattered - all that money spent and I didn't even come close to placing.   Once my ego was better I went over the list of demerits, read a couple articles on the art of judging and decided that I really didn't care to ever have any of my cars judged ever again.   

Several years back I was invited to put my Pagoda into a judging class at a local car show and declined saying that judges probably didn't know enough about the Pagoda to give justice to the cars.   I later overheard two guys talking about my car and another pagoda beside.   The one guy said that my car was incorrect as all 280sl's came with bumper over riders and soft pockets on the doors.   I didn't even try to correct him, he turned out to be one of the judges..... 
       

[Benz Dr.]

Years ago when attending a concours show with the local Jaguar/MG club I put my freshly restored MGB into the Judging class.    My freshly restored car got last place in its class with a 73 points out of 100.   I was shattered - all that money spent and I didn't even come close to placing.   Once my ego was better I went over the list of demerits, read a couple articles on the art of judging and decided that I really didn't care to ever have any of my cars judged ever again.   

Several years back I was invited to put my Pagoda into a judging class at a local car show and declined saying that judges probably didn't know enough about the Pagoda to give justice to the cars.   I later overheard two guys talking about my car and another pagoda beside.   The one guy said that my car was incorrect as all 280sl's came with bumper over riders and soft pockets on the doors.   I didn't even try to correct him, he turned out to be one of the judges..... 
       

I've been a judge at three 190SL conventions.  I thought I knew a lot about 190SL's before I did this and I learned a lot from others just by working alongside those who knew more. Each part of the car was judged by a two-person team and there were three or four cars that we worked on. This probably took us about two hours to do all four cars and then the six teams all got together to compare notes on which was the best car. It was a fair system and I didn't see any funny stuff or favoritism.
 When we started someone said, " Let's not be too anal about this."  Someone disagreed and said that we had to be or they'd all score 100 points. When we finished, the right car won and the fourth-place car owner agreed that he needed to do more work. From what I heard, he fixed any objections and returned to other shows until his car finally took first place. Judged fairly and honestly, it's a way to bring your car up to factory new standards. The judges are supposed to be there to help you not criticize your car. If they don't know about something it's up to the owner to point it out but all of this is mostly about club-level events. Other multi-car shows tend to use French judging as they wouldn't have the time to look closely at hundreds of cars. 

All of these elements provide an education in one way or another.  Some go away with a positive review and others not so much.
 

[John Betsch - "SADIE"]

This is as it should be, and I am sure entrants were happy with the time taken to carefully review their car with a common set of standards.   

Unfortunately, many times other factors are considered whether purposely or subliminally e.g. a professional restored car "must be correct, must be the best " etc. 

Maybe a good rule would be to go over the judging sheet with each entrant  to explain the "whys," which is not usually done.  Some times a score sheet may be provided after but with no explanation as to why a deduction.  If an explanation is done, everyone would gain information and minimize a lot of frustration of both the judge and entrant.