Italian “Original Sold” Location

[neelyrc]

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=35769.msg262037#msg262037

I enjoyed reading the history of Tom Kizer’s car in Reply #18 of the above thread.  I didn’t want to go off on a tangent in that thread but I did want to comment on his post, thus this new thread. Tom indicates that he doesn’t know where his car was originally sold in Italy. 

I was wondering if Tom received any documentation with the car that might help uncover the answer.  Italy has a “cradle to grave” license plate system. During the period Tom’s car was first registered there, the license plate number would have included the provincial code BO for Bologna, RO for Rome, GE for Genova, etc. This plate number would have followed the car as long as it was in Italy.  Documents such as the Italian registration book, correspondence, dealer or garage service records, etc. during the cars Italian life could include the license plate number.  A photo of the car from this period might also provide an answer.

The other thought I had was that the PO may know the Italian license plate number. Perhaps Tom is still in contact with the PO, Sig. Catone. If not, I see that a Lucio Catone with a profile that seems to fit that of the PO is on Linked In and he should in theory be contactable.  He might even have retained some Italian documentation on the car!

Tom may have delved into this over the years.  It just seemed to me from reading the history that the “first sold” location may not be out of reach.

[rwmastel]

I assume privacy laws have changed, but back around 2000 or 2001 an Italian member of our group (back in the Yahoo Group days) volunteered to help me look for my car's Italian history.  Armed with the VIN and the original dealership name (therefor, location) via the sticker in the hard top window, he was able to get a motor vehicle office to make copies of the historic registration.  On one sheet, I have the names of 4 owners, the cities they lived in, the price each paid for the car, and some other info.  The first owner was Carlo Riva of the Riva boat building company.  I haven't looked at that document in years!  Anyway, if any Italian members here have friends in the motor vehicle area of the government, perhaps old history can still be collected.  Good luck!

[Tomnistuff]

Hi Guys,
In 1987 I bought my Italian Pagoda fourth-hand in the U.S.  I never new where in Italy it was originally sold and wasn't too interested to go to the trouble to find out. I did, however, find in the few bills and receipts, one of which was a receipt for some Quick and Dirty Pseudorestoration work in Italy before it was sent to the U.S.  The Italian license number was listed on the receipt. That work was done in Italy probably because parts were easier to find in Europe before it was brought to the U.S. sometime in the early 1980s.  Now that my interest has been aroused, I think I'll dig out that receipt and see what it looks like again.
I know it's possible because I discovered it with the help of a Ferrari historian for a 1969 Ferrari 365GT2+2 that I restored.  I even fabricated vacuum formed plastic front and rear license plates to match the design of the era with the original numbers and letters of the plate and even faked the Italian Government Stamps that would have been on the original plates.  The Judges at Cavallino Classic XIX at The Breakers Hotel in Palm Beach thought they were the original plates that I had restored.  They gave me a Platinum Award at The Breakers and an Excellence in Class Silver Platter at Mar-a-Lago. I never did, however, discover the dealership from which it was sold.  If I live long enough, maybe I can do better with the Pagoda.  By the way, I even found out all of the previous owners of the Ferrari.
Tom Kizer

[JamesL]

Rodd

Carlo Riva. Now there’s a man who should know style when he sees it. His products are the Patek of motorboats.

That he bought a Pagoda new should be in the “celeb owners” list

[AdelaidePagoda]

This thread has opened up an interest for myself too. My Pagoda was first delivered to Naples Italy and retains the small orange front fender indicator lights. I would be keen to find out more about its full history and if license plates can be recreated by someone cleverer than myself! This is what I know so far:

VIN: 11304210002101
Engine no: 1279810001982
Colour: 050 (Mercedes’ white)
Delivered: 543 Italy
Licence plate: NA757605 (Naples)
First owner 1964 : Dr Giuseppe Del Balzo Napoli

It spent its first 15 years running up and down the Amalfi Coast, la dolce vita!

[rwmastel]

James,

Yes, they made beautiful boats back then.  He took the modest family business that started building boats back around 1850 and turned it into a high end business for wealthy customers.  There was an article in Wooden Boat magazine about him, and there is a picture in that article that happens to include my car!  Do we keep a list of celebrity owners?

Tom and Dave,

I have my license plate number as well and have wanted to make a duplicate as it would have appeared in the 60's.  Years ago, I found some internet company that would do that for all kinds of different countries, but I never tried them out.  Maybe I'll look for them again.

[Peter van Es]

Do we keep a list of celebrity owners?

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Main/Diversions

[rwmastel]

Oh, man.  My memory is good!  I thought I had discussed classic Italian license plates on the forum years back.  Here it is!  https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=1317.msg6565#msg6565  Now, I said in the discussion that I was getting the plates, but for some reason I never did.

Peter, thanks for getting all the old content over when converting to our current forum software!  It's great to find posts from 2004!

[neelyrc]

……….This thread has opened up an interest for myself too. My Pagoda was first delivered to Naples Italy and retains the small orange front fender indicator lights. I would be keen to find out more about its full history and if license plates can be recreated by someone cleverer than myself!……….

Here is an Italian site that offers vintage plates similar to the originals:  https://www.targhestoriche.it/car-license-plates/

I do not have any experience with this vendor.

[rwmastel]

I think I'll try these guys.
https://www.m.licenseplates.tv/categories/1339

[AdelaidePagoda]

Both vendors look great. I will make the necessary enquires.
If anyone else has any experience with Italian number plate providers, I am all ears.

[neelyrc]

Here is one more vendor.  Again, I have not had experience with this vendor: 

https://www.targhe-italiane.it/

I don’t know how pricing might compare between the three vendors, however if I were looking for an authentic reproduction, I think I would look at one of the Italian vendors. Local knowledge!

[Cees Klumper]

    if I were looking for an authentic reproduction, I think I would look at one of the Italian vendors. Local knowledge!

Yes and no. Meaning that, if there are certain legal restrictions in Italy on reproducing vintage plates, then an Italian company will want to adhere to those, whereas a company outside Italy or the EU probably doesn't care.

I say this because I had this experience last September. I was in Split, Croatia where many of my team are based, and decided to have some T shirts printed up for them. The design I made included the logos of the team's soccer teams: Hajduk from Split, and the national Cameroun soccer team (one of the team members is from Yaounde, Cameroun). The T shirt printing shop were very nice and accommodating, however they said they weren't allowed to reproduce the Hajduk logo. The Cameroun one was no problem for them ...

So perhaps best double check that an imitation plate will be identical in every way (including any registration or whatever stickers) before ordering.

[rwmastel]

I sent a PM to "Mauro12" about collecting ownership history and he said you just need the old license number plate.  Contact "motorizzazione civile" (Italian office of vehicle registration) in the appropriate province and pay the fee.  I don't know if they'll do this in English, maybe one of our Italian members will have to do the work for us.

[mauro12]

Hello guys. As an Italian person , the number plates for us are really important . Just to make you an example , having a pagoda with his original plate from the 60's gives an higher value than a car with recent number plate . My car has a number plate from 1979 because the previous owner ( from 1967 till 1979) lost the original plate . For this reason I know all the owners from 1979 till today. if I want to know the owners from 1967 to 1979 I have to contact the Italian registration office of vehicles ( motorizzazione civile ) and ask for an extract of ownership. This process is on payment and it takes a lot of time and boring lines at the offices but it is possible . Each Italian main city before 2002 ( euro zone ) used to have the plates with the first 2 letters of the city of registration. For Instance Messina  ME , Milan MI , Rome RM and so on. Now all of this doesn't exist anymore since 2002 and all eu member states have very similar style of plates. In the unfortunate case somebody steal my plates or they get destroyed, I have to  register the car once again and have new plates and new registration paper , this would be a pity and a loss of historical value for the car.

[rwmastel]

All this talk about original owners, license plate numbers, and so forth got me curious about my car's records.  I got my file folder out last night.
- I found the old document with the Italian license plate listed.  I think it's a road tax document or similar.  I can now order proper classic plates.
- I found some original docs from inspection and a car dealership was listed as the owner.  I believe this is when the car was first registered in the USA.  That dealership still exists today in the same town in Costa Mesa, California!
- I found the ownership history from Italy, including the person from the USA who exported the car to California.  I may want that translated someday soon, the photo copy of the old original document is not great quality. 
- In looking at service records from the previous owner, I found something very interesting.  The PO lived about 5.5 miles from me in Columbus, Ohio when I found the car for sale and bought it from him in August 2000.  He had owned the car since 1976, but had recently moved from Lancaster, Ohio, about 40 miles away, and was selling the Pagoda and his late wife's Honda (he kept the 1990's E320).  Well, my wife and I moved to a rural area near Lancaster back in 2016 to be nearer to my aging father and my brother.  I knew I had receipts in the file from where he had the car serviced in Lancaster.  Last night, I found some of those service receipts and found his old address on them, and discovered I currently live about 5.5 miles from where he lived in the 1970's - 1990's.  Isn't that crazy?

[mauro12]

My car for example was acquired in 1967 in Messina  ( my home city ) and have been sold  6 times ( I’m the owner n. 6) always within people from my city . I had the possibility to contact the nephew of the first owner and he sent me a picture when the car was almost new and painted in his original color 335h.

[Desertpagoda]

The Italians are nice, (incorrect ft fender lights fitted at this point)

[AdelaidePagoda]

Gorgeous! Superb photos DesertPagoda and a lovely example of an Italian delivered 230SL. We may even have a small Italian Pagoda Chapter forming 😀

You can see mine Instagram: 1964Pagoda_w113