Author Topic: Woes of Cognac Leather  (Read 2457 times)

Jack the Knife

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Woes of Cognac Leather
« on: February 17, 2023, 00:49:03 »
On my desk, I have four samples of cognac leather:
  • Aeristo's Touranil Cognac 2
  • KHM's Original-Muster ("Old Timer")
  • Hyde's Vegetable-Tanned
  • Hyde's Basic Klassic

I believe KHM's supplier for vegetable-tanned is Steenbuck, but I will amend this post with that information if they're willing to disclose it. The others, representing what's purported to be the top two automotive leather suppliers in the US, make their own leather. When one purchases "old-timer" leather from GAHH, they are using Hyde's, though upcharging for it.

It seems cognac is a very difficult thing to achieve. I'm sure the old salts here are very familiar with the story of how it came about, but the long and the short is that it was an accidental innovation by Roser, the original leather supplier for our cars. My understanding is they were trying to create a certain red color, but the dye beaded on the leather surface instead, creating a two-tone ruddy brown over a backdrop of yellow. This has been exceeding difficult to replicate, for my belief is that Roser was using top grain hides, which facilitates that beading. Cheaper leathers which have been sanded will not have the "original" type of coloration, rather appearing as one solid brown color. Some of this information may be erroneous, and I welcome a correction, but this is what I've read to this point.

In disassembling the interior of my car, I have discovered places that may have been reupholstered at least in part, and others I believe to be original, at least based on the workmanship. I was going to use the kick panels to compare the accuracy of the leather samples to the original thing, but it appears those were reupholstered, and in a very clumsy way with loads of staples everywhere. A piece of the dash, however, appears to be original. That said, while my car only was driven ~80k miles and was largely not driven since 1977 (at 77k miles), I do believe there will no doubt be some fading of the color from original -- or else darkening at common touch points.

In the photos I've attached, you can see Aeristo on the top left, veg tanned Hyde's on the top right, basic Hyde's on the bottom left, and KHM on the bottom right. On the second photo, you can see Hyde's basic and Aeristo overlain on the dash piece. On the third photo, you can see Hyde's veg. tanned and KHM likewise.

I really don't even know if my dash piece is original, so if someone has some nice pictures of a true original cognac, I'd absolutely welcome that. Every Mercedes of this era one sees online seems to have a different idea of cognac, so I'm really not so sure what is supposed to be "right," or if there even is a "right" anymore, as Roser is long gone. Regardless, based on how these feel to me, I'd rank them as follows:

1) Tie between Hyde's veg. tanned and KHM
2) Aeristo
3) Hyde's basic

The Hyde's vegetable-tanned sample feels quite soft and supple -- luxuriant, even, and it is in-line with what I might expect from a car of that era. Despite the sample's thickness, it's extremely pliant, and seems like it would be a pleasure to work with when stretching it over a surface. The KHM sample however looks "nicer," and if I were making a pair of shoes, I'd no doubt choose it far above everything else. It's the only truly full-grain sample of the bunch, I think, and the grain also serves to hide flaws and creases and such quite well, in my opinion.

Aeristo is renowned for their leather, and perhaps they're the best in the US overall when it comes to automotive leathers in general. However, it seems to crease easy, whereas my two top picks do not. In other words, the Aeristo sample is much stiffer. That said, it is a bit more authentic when it comes to the subtle yellow undertones. I am not so sure how comfortable it would be in the real world, though for Concours-type vehicles and other such cars that are more for looking rather than riding, it would be an excellent choice for aesthetics. But the Hyde's and KHM sample are in another world in terms of softness and texture, with the Hyde's vegetable-tanned sample being slightly softer than KHM, and KHM having a more interesting texture.

The Hyde's basic sample is both inaccurate in terms of color, appearing as a solid brown, middling in softness but slightly better than the Aeristo sample though nowhere close to the other two, and, well, it's just okay. Probably considerably better than the stuff one gets stock from GAHH and such, and it would probably satisfy most people. Indeed, it is a good value, I'd say.

As an aside, I ought to review the customer service of each. Aeristo has absolutely top-notch customer service. They're a superlative business. They also sent me samples via DHL in 2 days from their headquarters in Texas. I was very impressed -- also including a really choice handwritten postcard from Italy with a message from the salesman, Henry, who is extremely prompt with calls and overall just a pleasure to deal with. They really try to earn your business, and they deserve high regard for this. However, at nearly $30/ft, I would hope so! I have communicated with KHM exclusively through email. They are likewise very prompt, though of course since they are a German company, there is a bit of a language barrier. Nonetheless, there is a benefit to patronizing KHM, for they are the upholsters -- they also seem to have reasonable prices on their labor. GAHH has likewise been easy to deal with on this front, and they will accept any leather you send them and provide a discount for such, though they do seem to be quite expensive when it comes to the labor. I think they could do much better on the price if you're providing the material, personally. Hyde's has been slow and relatively unresponsive compared to the others, with calls or emails typically taking many days to return. Indeed, I asked for a quote on three hides of each sample, and they still have not gotten back to me or acknowledged the receipt of either my email or phone call.

Lastly, I'd like to name and shame Heritage Upholstery in Palm Springs. The owner is very rude over the phone and does not return calls. I have read other posts both here and elsewhere corroborating my experience. That's really too bad, since he seems to do very high quality work, and his videos were extremely helpful when it came to seat disassembly as well as what to look out for in a high quality versus inferior upholstery job.

I'll likely use Hyde's vegetable tanned leather in my interior and have it sent to GAHH, but if they continue to be unresponsive, I'll likely proceed with KHM in the coming days, as though it may not be absolutely authentic in terms of texture, it is probably the best piece of leather.
1964 230SL
2015 G550

lreppond

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2023, 04:38:08 »
I just had my original seats redone using Hyde’s vegetable dyed old timer leather.  (It’s made by Hans Reinke reportedly using the original Roser vats and dye recipes)  GAHH fabricated them. I had Hyde’s do the “perforating” since I consider theirs to be punched and embossed better than from any other source.  The new covers are really sweet: they are fragrant, have depth/complexity of color, crisp embossing, and have a very soft hand.  I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.  Contact Elizabeth at GAHH for excellent service.

My experience with Heritage has been identical to yours.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 05:41:01 by lreppond »
~Len

1971 280 SL
576G red/251 Beige
4 speed manual
Family owned since new (father —> son)

johnk

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2023, 12:26:34 »
Yes definitely stay away for Heritage. Their work is not as good as the videos and his ego is bigger than our member list. He charged me for things I did not order like painting the springs and tried to shame me for not just going with his decisions like all of his other customers do. When the order was done he insisted I pay $1,250 for the carpet he supposedly made for my car that I never ordered. Finally his secretary talked sense into him about that and I bought the same carpet for $400 elsewhere

Instead of listening to your concerns he tells you how his wife could be a super model and his personal car collection is huge.

My seat bottoms are higher on one side than the other with wrinkles not shown on the videos and the covers keep coming off the seats in front. I have to take to a local shop to fix

Oh yes he told me Pagodafest in California was a waist of his important time. I wish I would have listened to other members complaints.
John Krystowski
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lreppond

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2023, 16:24:16 »
For what it’s worth, I’ve grown wary of businesses that produce slick YouTube videos.  It like their efforts are put into the videos rather than their products! Self promotion is fine but it’s got to be backed with a quality product.
~Len

1971 280 SL
576G red/251 Beige
4 speed manual
Family owned since new (father —> son)

Jack the Knife

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2023, 00:17:23 »
Yes definitely stay away for Heritage. Their work is not as good as the videos and his ego is bigger than our member list. He charged me for things I did not order like painting the springs and tried to shame me for not just going with his decisions like all of his other customers do. When the order was done he insisted I pay $1,250 for the carpet he supposedly made for my car that I never ordered. Finally his secretary talked sense into him about that and I bought the same carpet for $400 elsewhere

Instead of listening to your concerns he tells you how his wife could be a super model and his personal car collection is huge.

My seat bottoms are higher on one side than the other with wrinkles not shown on the videos and the covers keep coming off the seats in front. I have to take to a local shop to fix

Oh yes he told me Pagodafest in California was a waist of his important time. I wish I would have listened to other members complaints.

I'm glad that it wasn't just me. He cuts you off in mid-sentence and doesn't answer questions. He ghosted me when I asked who supplies his leather. I guess he likes clients who aren't especially discerning and will just open up their wallets and worship his ego. Not sure how guys like that can stay in business otherwise. Imagine him being your boss...

For what it’s worth, I’ve grown wary of businesses that produce slick YouTube videos.  It like their efforts are put into the videos rather than their products! Self promotion is fine but it’s got to be backed with a quality product.

I agree. There are a few well-known Pagoda restorers in Florida who do that. Anyway, still haven't heard back from Hyde's. I asked KHM about their suppliers and they say they've had problems with Hans-Reinke's QC and they have to pass the wild color variations onto the customer with buying extra material... well, the vegetable tanned sample Hydes sent me does have a lot of variation.
1964 230SL
2015 G550

wwheeler

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2023, 00:25:59 »
I have the Old Timer cognac that I bought from GAT (now GAHH). Very happy with that. The texture is very close and the color not far off. I have a few areas that were hidden and could see the original cognac. The Old Timer compares very favorably. The standard grade (cheaper) cognac is not good and used it in a couple of areas that have now been replaced. Color off and the texture is almost non existent. Not worth the savings considering the cost of labor.

GAT said the Old Timer was veggie tanned and that the batches do vary. I have both the cognac on the W111 and the medium red on the W128; all Old Timer.

The KHM looks too textured to me and more like what MB Tex looks like. 
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

lreppond

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2023, 02:07:54 »
Here’s some thoughts:
All of us here provide anecdotal experiences.  Statically, it is not very reliable simply because our sample size is so small.  So take my experiences for what they are worth.
 
Hydes is a Canadian representative for H-R. They are essentially wholesalers, and typically don’t interact with the public. Similar to your experience,  communication was not the best until I asked my upholsterer to contact them…then things moved along quickly. 

I had a fellow in Germany make a set of Hepco-style luggage using the same H-R leather  as my interior.  The leather was ordered directly from H-R, not Hyde’s. Surprisingly, the color & texture match perfectly to my interior leather even though they are from different dye lots. Maybe I just lucked out…and with a sample size of two, it’s tough to draw any reliable conclusions.

I will say this: vegetable dyed leather will have some level of color and textural variation.  It is essentially an artisanal product (unlike aniline leathers which can churn out consistency time after time).  To me, that’s the beauty of it.   Being authentic to what was used at DBAG when our cars were built is also important to me. 

Good luck on your project.  Please keep all of us updated.
~Len

1971 280 SL
576G red/251 Beige
4 speed manual
Family owned since new (father —> son)

Jack the Knife

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2023, 02:40:11 »
Here’s some thoughts:
All of us here provide anecdotal experiences.  Statically, it is not very reliable simply because our sample size is so small.  So take my experiences for what they are worth.
 
Hydes is a Canadian representative for H-R. They are essentially wholesalers, and typically don’t interact with the public. Similar to your experience,  communication was not the best until I asked my upholsterer to contact them…then things moved along quickly. 

I had a fellow in Germany make a set of Hepco-style luggage using the same H-R leather  as my interior.  The leather was ordered directly from H-R, not Hyde’s. Surprisingly, the color & texture match perfectly to my interior leather even though they are from different dye lots. Maybe I just lucked out…and with a sample size of two, it’s tough to draw any reliable conclusions.

I will say this: vegetable dyed leather will have some level of color and textural variation.  It is essentially an artisanal product (unlike aniline leathers which can churn out consistency time after time).  To me, that’s the beauty of it.   Being authentic to what was used at DBAG when our cars were built is also important to me. 

Good luck on your project.  Please keep all of us updated.

I sent an email to KHM requesting if it is possible to proceed with the HR leather regardless of their concerns. We'll see what they say, and of course I'll be happy to update with pricing and all that when I get it all together. I'll be redoing the entire interior.

Your Hepco-style luggage sounds very intriguing. As you know, the original luggage from most car companies really wasn't very good -- just cardboard with pretty leather over it, mostly. If that. How much did it cost? Are you satisfied with it? May I see some photos?
1964 230SL
2015 G550

DaveB

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2023, 02:58:57 »
Jack did you get an opinion from Aaron Householder about the leather options? He seems to have substantial objective experience with all aspects of 60s MB.
DaveB
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lreppond

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2023, 03:17:10 »
Hepco luggage was actually made of brown (early) or black (later) vinyl with a faux moire lining.  The two sets I had made were done in Hepco style but constructed in leather over hardboard and lined in wool plaid and finished with nickel plated brass hardware. Here’s a set in parchment and another in beige. Look at the bottom photograph to assess quality.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 03:25:03 by lreppond »
~Len

1971 280 SL
576G red/251 Beige
4 speed manual
Family owned since new (father —> son)

Jack the Knife

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2023, 03:31:10 »
Jack did you get an opinion from Aaron Householder about the leather options? He seems to have substantial objective experience with all aspects of 60s MB.

I did, actually! He was kind enough to give me a whole seminar on leather, which is why I immediately went for Hydes and Aeristo. He was extremely generous with his time and makes great conversation.

Hepco luggage was actually made of brown (early) or black (later) vinyl with a faux moire lining.  The two sets I had made were done in Hepco style but constructed in leather over hardboard and lined in wool plaid and finished with nickel plated brass hardware. Here’s a set in parchment and another in beige. Look at the bottom photograph to assess quality.
Man. Those look killer. A real artisan made these. I'd love to know more about the gentleman you hired if you don't mind sharing.
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2015 G550

Pinder

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2023, 13:46:23 »
My 1969 280SL that I sold last year had Cognac leather originally but it was faded. and any attempt to clean it aggressively removes/removed the darker tint.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
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mdsalemi

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2023, 15:25:54 »
Just a few things to add here from my experience.

1. Heritage Upholstery. Sorry to hear that everyone has had mediocre to bad experiences with them. Quite a few years ago when they were in the process of moving from Canada to California, and I was an ad sales manager, I had a hard time getting in touch with them. Eventually I did, and while not the easiest to work with from an ad point of view, they did come through. Then a couple of years ago I needed a hard top liner when my Pagoda hard top was being restored--they came through quickly, with a quality product at a fraction of the MB OEM price. Guess I got lucky.

2. For luggage, make an inquiry to Laurent Nay. https://www.laurentnay.com Bespoke luggage of the highest quality.

3. Though his specialty is Ferrari first, Italian cars second, I've learned an awful lot from the scores of photos and articles sent to me by Henk van Lith of the Netherlands. https://www.hvlclassleathers.com and http://www.carinteriors.nl  Henk is a fountain of knowledge.
Michael Salemi
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Pinder

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2023, 16:21:11 »
from your first pic Original Muster is close to what was on my car in terms of pattern.


But I just found this in the technical manual and it could be original.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Interior/Glovebox

Regards

Pinder
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 17:12:10 by Pinder »
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
1997 Corvette C5 Silver. automatic
2015 BMW 320i xdrive
2021 Mercedes GLS450 Silver

stickandrudderman

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2023, 16:22:33 »
We#ve fitted a couple of KHM cognac leather kits and we and our customers have been very happy with them.

Jack the Knife

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2023, 22:18:28 »
I paid KHM this morning and I look forward to their product. I compared the samples to the inside of the glove box which appears to be original and it matched up a little bit better. I was also informed that apparently they do many of the interiors for vehicles at the Classic Center. That seems to be a good enough endorsement to me.
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Garry

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Re: Woes of Cognac Leather
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2023, 23:44:11 »
I have used KHM twice, and visited their factory in Germany.  They were very helpful and both sets of interior were excellent with only one minor hiccup that they sent extra material priority straight away to correct.
Garry Marks
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