w111 coupe door window adjustment

[dunc1]

Hello
Just putting the side window back into the car's door and the window is sitting high towards the front and the top of glass is not horizontal. I think this is how the small metal tab, at front of the chrome frame on top of the glass has broken off in the past. ( I have noticed it broken and missing on quite a few cars).  The mechanism will hit the stop toward the rear of the glass, but the front goes up high. The window sits nicely in the vertical guide rail channels at the front and the shorter track at the back and follows the inward lean that it should have.
Is there any adjustment to the lifting rail, to get the glass higher in the back, so it will sit horizontal to top of the door, when down at its lowest and with the roof line's rubber seal when all the way up.
Appreciate any insight, if anyone has tackled this before.

Also - does anyone know the size of the countersunk screws for the door latch strikers (locking lug/eyes) .  Mine are slightly chewed up from repeated tightening/loosening while adjusting. I still have to close the driver door with a bit of force to get the catch to work and hold the door flush with the rear panel.

[wwheeler]

While I have not dived into this project yet, my passenger side does what you describe while the drivers does not. If I understand correctly what you are talking about, the door glass is not being constrained at the rear of the vent window frame or the front of the door glass. Once the glass hits the rear stop, the front edge keeps travelling up?

My best guess from observing is that the door glass comes up the stop on the vent frame. It should stop there and bind the motor. But it doesn't and the glass actually slides slightly rearward allowing the glass to slip out from the vent frame stop and up a bit. I would guess that there is too much front to back play in the glass and allowing the glass to slide back.

As I said, I have not dived into this, so just a guess. Maybe the felt channel whiskers have worn to the point where there is now more wiggle room front to back. Maybe the rear guide is worn as well. The rear stop should be adjusted so that it hits at the same time as the vent frame stop or maybe slightly later. Later because if anything, you want the glass to dive forward into the vent frame stop, not rearward. Moving rearward is why the glass is popping out from the vent frame.

Good luck and please post what you found. I will be going down this same street at some point.

[dunc1]

Hi Wallace.
I think you are picturing my issue and I will take some photos today to show what's going on.
I took the glass out to replace the vertical rubber/felt channels in the channel that holds the vent window and the guide that sits down inside at back of door. I will fuss around and see how to tip/tilt the window forward so it should stay "level" going up. I hope I discover some method.
My passenger side is fine, but I haven't pulled that side yet to replace the channels. The chrome window top frame still has the tab on that side.
Will keep you posted on progress.
Cheers,
Duncan

[Leester]

The screw you asked about is an M6 with 10mm thread - and as you pointed out, countersunk. Parts book describes it as 007987 006130.

[wwheeler]

Hi Duncan,

On the guide in the rear, is there any adjustment there? Did you take the vent window frame out to replace the felt channel? There should be adjustment toward the bottom of the channel run and could help snug the back to front movement of the glass. It can't be so tight that it binds, but not sloppy either. 

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what you find. I did do the complete door window overhaul on my W128 220SE Ponton coupe and I am going to tell you that was an adventure. There is such a thing as too many adjustments.

On a semi related note, did you pull the trim on top of the door glass? If so, what did you use between the chrome trim channel and the glass? Glass seal tape?   

Thanks.

[dunc1]

Hi again
The guide channel at the rear only seems to be able to adjust the tilt/lean in/out in line with the A - pillar and rear side window plane. It does not effect the height of the glass.
The window runs fairly smoothly up and down the channels and does not bind, nor slip down without any resistance, so I feel it is set right.
I did remove the vent window frame and marked its original position and re-set it back on the marks. The adjustment here only seems to alter the lean aspect toward, or away from the bodywork too.
The only place it seems could allow tilt fore and aft would be at the lifting rail, but that is minuscule as the holes through the glass have the small rubber/washers filling the void. I have thought about removing all but one of the middle ones and having a fraction of degrees to tilt the glass slightly forward.
I'm after about 1/8" up towards the rear of the glass. I would relish an easy to spot adjustment opportunity. Could the lifting arm be tweaked ?
Here's a couple more photos to show how the top of the window sits presently in full up position and close to full down.


The chrome trim frame is not secured to the top of the window yet. I bought some og=f the rubber U-channel for that purpose - I thought it was pressure fit, but may require some adhesive ? Might use a spot of E-6000 glue. I had tried the black 3M weatherstrip/gasket adhesive on the vent window seal with pretty poor and messy results.

[dunc1]

Possibly take out 3 of the door glass spacers and buy a small adjustment ?

[wwheeler]

Window glass adjustment is very tricky in my opinion. To start, I would not remove the rubber spacers. Those are there to isolate the glass from the mounting screws that go through. Without those and if the glass is directly touching the screw, the glass could shatter.

My thinking is that the lifter only lifts the glass. It does not guide or locate. It is designed to lift more or less near the center of the glass. If the glass is going up crooked, then the guides are not parallel or too wide for the glass width. I know with my 220Se Coupe, the bolt you show at the rear guide adjusts in two directions inner to outer and then front to back. May not be much front to back, but there should be some slop.

On the 220SE coupe, you can place a shim where the rear guide bolts near the top of the door. That will narrow the width between the rear channel and the vent channel and thus reducing any play between the guides and the glass. But the guides need to be parallel or it will be too loose at one point or too tight at another.     

Looking at the top door glass trim - the front edge looks too far out from the vent frame. I took a picture of mine that is original and untouched. See attached. The gap is more Mercedes like and maybe 1.5mm. This is the drivers side that woks well and stops the way it should. The rear positioning of the trim on the glass is like yours. The passenger side that pops out from the vent frame has twice the gap as does the drivers. That tells me that on mine, the guide channels are too far apart at the top. Not sure why and not going to address that now. I just stop the glass just shy of that point so it won't pop out.

Looking closely at the vent frame fuzzy channel - I think the fuzzy channel is not installed properly at the top. Looks smudged in and part is sticking out. Should be uniform top to bottom. That is pushing the door glass back and too far for the stop on the trim to engage.

Hopefully that helps some. 

[wwheeler]

BTW, the fuzzy channel in the vent frame goes all the way to the top. In order to do that, you have to cut one of the sides of the channel (outboard?) to fit in the frame. So now at the last 3/8" or so, the channel is an 90* angle, not a channel.

[dunc1]

Beyond tricky.

The plot thickens.

I did spy what might be a a shim on the schematic by the rear channel guide. I haven't discovered any part that looks like it on mine.
It could be missing ?
The top bolt through the door holding the rear channel guide has a washer on the inside but no shim on mine. A shim here could potentially push/tilt the glass more "forward"
I'm attaching the schematic parts diagram to show what might be the "shim" ? #57
I don't notice any slop in the lower bolt to move it closer to the font or rear of the car and can only adjusts the "lean" into the car by moving the bolt's nuts against the guide to push it further way, or bring closer. The bolt goes through a hole in the door and not a slot opening with any horizontal adjustment.

The window glass seems to run up and down the guides well without feeling tight and binding, when not attached to the lifter and meets the roofline rubber seal in a parallel horizontal plane, which is why I feel the lifter's angle might be the culprit. The angel/lean into the car seems spot on and meets the roofline rubber seal along the length of the window. I will do more tweaking and see how to get it better.

I did trim the vertical felt channel on the outside to match the chrome profile near the vent window. I do need to clean it up and poke the bulge in.

I do note how close your chrome "top door glass trim" is to the vent frame. The chrome piece is still loose on mine, until I sort out all these other issues and commit to setting it place, but it is sitting butted up to the rear of the glass so it won't shift any closer to the vent frame for these trials.
I aspire for such tight gaps like yours. I will see how much of the glass sits in the channel. I didn't think there was any gap between the glass and the "bottom"/side of the channel. I will employ some depth gauge measuring device and closer scrutinization.

My passenger side door window is much better - chrome piece still has the little tab on it that acts as a stop for the window motor.
I will inspect the gap and see if it is within the stuttgart 1.5mm tolerances.

My driver's window never had the extra tab on the chrome as it had been broken off before I bought it, nearly 20 years ago. I was always diligent to stop the window before it went too high in the front. I'm trying to fix it properly now while all the sins are revealed.

...

[dunc1]

Might have misspoken about the rear channel guide and not having any "slop", nor horizontal adjustment. Will pay more attention and investigate further.
Just looked through some photos and saw this evidence  ...

[wwheeler]

I will look at this more tonight and doing errands this afternoon. Even though my two coupes are at least a generation apart, Mercedes retained many similar assembly and mechanical techniques the same during the iterations. So you get used to how Mercedes approached this or that. Really almost the same for all German cars of the era.   

[wwheeler]

That adjustment channel is what I would expect. The fat washer on the bolt is the give away. It is needed to cover the large adjustment hole. I looked up the shim on Mercedes' EPC and is part # 111 725 51 47. They call it an adapter and says .5mm as required. So yes, that is a shim. You may or may not have one depending on need.

To me the door glass adjustment is like setting body panels. You start with the part that has no adjustment and in this case, that would be the A pillar. You would set the vent frame against that for a perfect fit. You can fudge the gap between the A pillar and the frame some, but not much. The important thing is that the gap between is parallel. The qtr window is basically non adjustable. So the glass and guides has to fit between those two. The fit with the qtr glass and door glass has a fair amount of room to fudge because they overlap.

There should also be an adjuster at the bottom of the vent frame channel. should be about the same as the one in the rear.   

Oh and one thing I should have mentioned earlier and that is your door needs to be set the way you want it to be before starting this. If it is realigned later, will throw everything you are doing now off.

[dunc1]

Thank you.
I have ordered a few, now that i have finished adjusting and can replace one at a time.

[dunc1]

Hi
I have got the window where I need it and door looks as good as it it did before, so not adjusting that.
Thank you for the part numbers and sticking with me through this ordeal and keeping me from a meltdown.

The vent frame does have the same lean adjustment, towards the bottom and I had marked it all before taking out.
The vent window hits the A pillar nicely.

I pushed in the sinful bulge of felt near the top of the channel and cleaned up the excess glue, so that looks pretty good.
I did trim back both sides of the vertical felt channel near the top, as the top of the vent chrome juts out on the outside and inside too. I left the bottom of the felt channel all the way to the top.

I can't get the gap from window chrome to vent chrome to be as small as yours. The window chrome sits up against the rear of the glass and the glass is up against the bottom of the felt channel, which is set in the vent channel all the way and the rear of the glass is against the top of the rear guide, so I don't know where to get any more forward movement. It is slightly better than last photos from micro adjustments and fussing.

The top of the window chrome follows the rubber seal nicely, so I felt I could move on and started to close the door up and have installed a new moisture barrier, after more fresh grease everywhere. The window goes up and down very fast now and fingers crossed I won't need to be peering into that cavity for many years.

Since my chrome "stop" tab is missing from the top of the window, I fabricated an additional stop onto the lifting rail and affixed an adjustable stop onto the door, so now the window stops on a dime at the right height. See photos of my home made parts. Welded a small metal angle piece onto the lifting rail and found a spare stop that was modified and closed off with a welded half washer, so It can't fall down inside the door if the lock nuts fail to hold it after repeated use that is bolted to the inside door frame with spacers.
I will make a good habit of stopping the window before the very top and nudge the switch button for the final inch, so it won't be hitting at ramming speed going up. Same for coming down.

Next job is the top chrome. Not sure if I should glue the rubber into the chrome and then ease it onto the glass with some lubricant, or put rubber onto the glass and ease the chrome on top of that ?.

I am also happy with the clips to attach the horizontal felts and they hold everything in a good place, especially on the inside. The outer felt could do with being a couple mm thicker. You had mentioned thicker felts coming from MBZ in the US. Do you have a link to purchase them ?. I can now take the outer felt out, without removing the glass in future.

Moving onto the pass. side door window next and the pass. side roof line rubber seal, along with the vent  window rubber seal. It was very difficult to get the vent window closed into the new rubber on driver's side. I am nervous to attempt opening it and then closing it with just the turning knob. I hope that it will get slippier and easier once the rubber wears in a bit.

[dunc1]

some pics of new additional window stop, so I don't have to fret about the window going up too high in the front

[m300cab]

if you need the thick window channel felt, I have a new roll.
I can sell you what you need.

[wwheeler]

Good to hear about your project. I had thought about the concept of adding another stop. Certainly can't hurt.

Shocking how fast the glass moves now that it is lubed and cleaned. Makes the issue of the stop even more important. I never noticed the window popping out on my pass side until I lubed the regulator because the glass moved so slowly before with the added drag.

The people in the factory knew all the tricks to getting these perfect and that knowledge will be lost to time.

About the chrome trim. What i have used on a few cars is use glass setting tape. It comes in many thicknesses. What you do is measure the glass and then the ID channel of the trim. Do some math and that will tell you what tape to get. The door glass is an easy trim to do. The vent window is a bit trickier. On my W128 coupe door glass, I ended up using black RTV because the trim was so long, curved and too easy to bend. If I had the proper mandrels, I could have used glass tape.

If you use tape, then you have to decide whether to put the tape on the glass or in the frame. To me that depends on the gap you need to fill vs. the tape thickness. If you put in the frame, the glass will "compress" the tape as it is sliding in. The reverse if you put on the glass. So if the tape is about the same size of the glass or slightly thicker, you could put it in the frame to keep it tight. You get the idea. I would use a very thin film of dish soap when sliding in. Makes it much easier and the soap will dissipate and leave a secure fit.           

[dunc1]

Hi Michael (M300 cab) -
I didn't think the felt I'm after came on a roll and was sold in 1m approx. lengths that are cut down to the width of the windows.
It has the metal strip at the bottom and one side is flat, with the other side having the felt bristles for the horizontal gaps on either side of the windows ?.

Is that what you have ?

Wallace had mentioned obtaining a fatter felt from US MBZ - I bought my felt from Niemoller in Germany and it does seems thinner than the old felts I had.
It would be nicer to get a bit more meat on the outer ones.

[dunc1]

The additional stop was fairly simple to copy the tab/stop on the lifting rail and find a similar spot for the adjustable stop on the door - I found a part while rummaging that worked but needed modifying. The factory one sits in a slot on the door, so if the nuts fail, then it can't fall down into the door and foul any moving parts. Otherwise it seems fairly simple and much needed for any cars that are missing the front tab on their chrome window frame, or owners/valets who aren't careful with the last touch on the switch.

Would be nice to meet or hear from someone that set the windows in at the factory. I think 50 years of use has no doubt moved some things around.

I will look into the "glass setting tape" -
I do have new rubber U- channel made for the top of glass and chrome and thought it was a pressure fit situation without any adhesive, but think I would prefer a firmer grip on it .
It shouldn't get disturbed, except when the window comes all the way down and the chrome will brush against the horizontal felts

On that note, another member reckons they have the window felt on a roll ?. You had said installing two types of horizontal felt - one form Germany and thicker from US. I'd like to get some of the thicker stuff too and do a combo. Can you point me to a source to purchase them ?
Thanks,
Duncan

[wwheeler]

I have that rubber channel as well. It might work but really need to measure to confirm. If it works then fine, if not, you can get glass tape.

I think the fuzzies that m330 cab is talking about is the fuzzy channel on the vent frame. Yes, that does come in a roll. These horizontal strips only come in a strip because they are rigid.

The strips I got from MB were thicker than the original. You can try the classic center and see if they have it. The other issue to me was the quality. The fuzzy skin on the MB part was not pinched well into the metal U channel at the bottom. It could come apart easily. Others on this site have stated a similar issue. If they have fixed that now, not sure. The German made unit from Niemöller or MB Classics was far better, but just a bit thinner than the original strip. Using two of the MB strips left too narrow of a gap for my quarter window and I used one of each. You are better off having a larger gap than too narrow of one. If the glass get squeezed in between too tightly, it will bind the motor and eventually peel the fuzzy off of the strip.