Author Topic: Brake Diagnosis  (Read 2226 times)

ted280sl

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Brake Diagnosis
« on: May 16, 2023, 19:25:21 »
I am experiencing a problem with the brakes on my 1969 280sl. I have replaced the rotors, calipers, brake pads, master cylinder, brake booster, vacuum hose and the check valve. On occasion my brake pedal goes way down. If I pump it a few times it comes back up and stays that way for a while.
The flex hoses seem fine. I suspect the brake proportion valve, also known as the brake pressure regulator.
I would appreciate any expert opinions on this matter. I was in touch with a vendor who offered to rebuild my regulator for almost $400 and three weeks. Are parts available, can I do it myself or can a local shop rebuild the valve?
Thanks,
Ted
1969 280SL

teahead

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2023, 20:36:33 »
sounds like a master cylinder going bad.
1970 280SL auto, AC - aka "Edelweiss"

thelews

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2023, 00:01:09 »
leaking seal, probably in the master
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John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2023, 03:27:51 »
Also thinking Master - proportioning valve seems not possible to cause these symptoms.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

ted280sl

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2023, 13:43:09 »
I ordered a new master cylinder. I will advise the group if we got it right.
Thanks,
Ted

WRe

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2023, 14:35:58 »
I have replaced ... master cylinder, ...

Hi,
there is a program on German television from a car repair shop that reports on cases in which a professional repair shop cannot solve the existing problem.
In many cases it is due to cheap parts that were ordered from dubious dealers on the Internet.
...WRe


roymil

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2023, 18:28:05 »
I'd agree its not the rear pressure regulator valve, unless you just see brake fluid squirting out of it someplace.   I just had one rebuilt by PMB performance in Utah for ~$200.  $400 is too high. They list it as a Porsche 914 rebuild, but they said its the same rear ATE valve our cars use, although I couldn't verify that.   They did a good job, clean and repainted, all new seals, and adjusted.   

Most likely one of your new brake parts is defective.  Master is the logical culprit,  but it would be worth doing a vacuum leak down test on the booster while you are waiting for other parts.  Mine will hold the vacuum for up to 1/2 hour after turning the engine off.  Just pull the line off and listen.   If it doesn't hold vacuum, its either a bad check valve (cheap), or a leak in the booster diaphragm (not so cheap).    I could also be that someone didn't use an actual vacuum rated hose to the booster.   Any old rubber hose IS NOT SAFE because they can collapse when it gets warm under the hood and vacuum is high.  A properly tuned engine at hot idle can suck 25PSI+.   If <20, you have other problems. 

I had tried rebuilding the rear valve myself but couldn't find the correct O-rings (material) and also I had no way to test and reset the spring pressure so it continued to allow rear lock up way too early.  Lock up was a bit scary and not a welcome noise around the neighborhood, or anywhere.   Makes you thankful for anti-locks on new cars.  All this valve does is to soften the rear pressure momentarily in a panic stop situation, or god forbid, you stomp on the brakes in a turn....don't do that.  Eventually I think the pressure gets there though if you keep on the peddle long enough...multiple 100's of mSec's?...I don't know, you just have to experience it.

A safety test for all of us is to get out in an empty parking lot or remote road someplace with plenty of room to lose it safely, and just stomp on the brakes at <35MPH to see what happens (with the wheel straight!).  If you are happy, then great.  And then, dont do it!, but just imagine what fun that would be while in a 90MPH turn...In my case, it scared the crap out of me and I rebuilt or replaced absolutely everything associated with brakes.  I also think a whole lot differently in the pagoda when I'm on those nice high curving freeway interchanges that allow high speeds and I see brake lights ahead.   It's easy to get complacent when our cars are so fun to drive fast, but you have to leave a lot of extra space for safe braking.

These cars are great, but the tech is old, and wont save you from yourself the way new cars will.  Everyone needs to get at least a little *safe* experience with non-ABS assisted panic stops.  I got my spin experience off-road in a '69 chevy truck with a 396 and drum brakes, but not everyone is old enough to have had that kind of "learning opportunity" ;-)

Wiki says, of course, Mercedes had the very first all wheel bosch ABS on the W116 in 1978, with ABS standard on most all cars by 1987.  If you learned to drive after that...I'm sorry you missed the fun.
Mark Miller
1968 280SL
Rode in his pagoda's first mile.

ted280sl

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2023, 15:24:27 »
I do not profess to be anything more than a mediocre mechanic. It seems this adventure proves my point. Before changing the master I reviewed my technical manual and realized I was using dot 3 hydraulic fluid instead of dot 4. I flushed the hydraulic system and put in dot 4. It seems my problem is resolved.
Thank you!

wwheeler

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2023, 15:53:55 »
I doubt the change from DOT 3 to DOT 4 effected anything. DOT4 is just a better grade of brake fluid over 3. But they are both compatible. More likely the action of flushing bled all of the air out of the system.

BTW on the proportioning valve. PMB also rebuilt mine and did a fine job. It is very similar to the Porsche unit. The difference is an internal spring. I suppose you could replace the internal parts, but how would you test it to be sure it is functioning? That is why I sent mine to PMB.   
Wallace
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'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

MikeSimon

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Re: Brake Diagnosis
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2023, 12:19:51 »
I am not sure, but DOT4 may not have been on the market in 1970.
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