Requesting Feedback on Bring-a-Trailer & Other Auction Sites

[Cole]

Hi,

I've been looking at using Bring-a-Trailer and have gotten a lot of positive as well as mixed feedback.
I, and probably others here, would like to hear about real experience with them a well as other facts, including how much, if any, shilling occurs, i.e., sellers & their friends/assocates engaing in false bidding to get the price higher. Based on what I've read, shilling is not uncommon on auction sites, so any good data and solutions on how to deal with this would help.
Also, data and recommendations regarding other autions sites would be good.

Thanks.
Cole

[BHap]

My very limited experience involved selling a BMW M3. I have been following BAT auctions for a while and wanted to sell my M3. Rather than going the “consignment” route, I sold my car outright to a BAT dealer for what I thought was a premium price. A year later (different market?), my car appeared for sale in a BAT auction and sold for about 20% more. I think it is a good place to be a seller and occasionally a good place to be a buyer. Do your homework, talk to some of the bigger sellers and make up your mind before you list or bid what your max bid (or reserve) will be. Don’t let emotions pull you into a pissing contest with “that other guy” that wants the same car - that’s where sellers win big!!

[Benz Dr.]

I'm luke warm about the place. If they insist that you sell no reserve - RUN, don't walk away. You will need a shill if you go that route.

The one thing I don't like about the place is how they let non bidders ask questions or make comments about the car for sale. There are places that are very similar to Bat and they won't allow that which we have used and found it to be much better.

Don't let anyone see your car for a private viewing. If they don't buy your car, don't like your car, or can't steal your car, they will very likely slag your car as a complete POS which can only hurt your sale.

Bat can be a useful option but go in with your eyes wide open. 

[Cees Klumper]

I've sold two cars on BAT (so far), both no reserve, and results were good. Both sold (obviously) and at good (1) and fair (2) prices. The auctions were also fun to experience. I am planning a third one, where I will have a reasonable reserve. Maybe after that a fourth one, we'll see. Fake bids, well they can backfire so not sure that's widespread or not, only bid to what you consider a fair price of course.
By the way Cole, your inbox is full!

[mdsalemi]

Plenty of in-depth information if you want to find it. After reading many people’s experiences with BaT here, I’ve concluded it may be a good place to sell (like Cees’ conclusions and experiences) but maybe not a great place to buy. The reasoning being that a number of Pagoda cars have been bid up beyond the general consensus of value by the expertise here.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44979/bring-a-trailer-pulls-590-mile-nissan-240sx-auction-over-shill-bidding-and-its-a-real-mess

https://www.sportscarmarket.com/columns/legal-files/letting-the-shill-win

https://insider.hagerty.com/trends/on-shills-and-chandeliers/

Backfires can happen with shills and other forms of questionable bidding schemes. In the earlier days of eBay a friend was selling a piece of costly equipment, and with partners in the process did shill bidding to drive up the price. He won by accident, and it cost him the ~15% fee that eBay charged.

[Cees Klumper]

Here's what BAT says about fake bids:

"Fairness is one of our most important values on BaT and we have gone to great efforts to develop a system that is transparent and fair to all of our users. We do not allow sellers to bid on their own listing, and any such behavior is strictly prohibited. We have tools in place that monitor bidding and the user accounts from which bids are placed to ensure this doesn’t happen. Additionally, we choose to make each user’s account history public via their user profile."

So it's clearly prohibited and anyone violating that isn't playing by the fair rules.

Sometimes when I am following an auction I also check the profiles of those bidding, when I suspect something is wrong. Being able to look at those profiles is a good thing. BTW I am a compliance officer and fraud investigator in my day job.

[rwmastel]

"We do not allow sellers to bid on their own listing, and any such behavior is strictly prohibited. We have tools in place that monitor bidding and the user accounts from which bids are placed to ensure this doesn’t happen. Additionally, we choose to make each user’s account history public via their user profile."

Being able to look at those profiles is a good thing. BTW I am a compliance officer and fraud investigator in my day job.

So, having multiple profiles is hard to hide on BAT?  Just asking, I've never registered there.

[john.mancini]

I agree with Michael. From what I have seen over the years, it's a better place to sell than to buy. Pagoda sales prices seem high, especially for cars that need expensive fixes. Ive seen many rusty, damaged W113's go for silly money.

[Benz Dr.]

Here's what BAT says about fake bids:

"Fairness is one of our most important values on BaT and we have gone to great efforts to develop a system that is transparent and fair to all of our users. We do not allow sellers to bid on their own listing, and any such behavior is strictly prohibited. We have tools in place that monitor bidding and the user accounts from which bids are placed to ensure this doesn’t happen. Additionally, we choose to make each user’s account history public via their user profile."

So it's clearly prohibited and anyone violating that isn't playing by the fair rules.

Sometimes when I am following an auction I also check the profiles of those bidding, when I suspect something is wrong. Being able to look at those profiles is a good thing. BTW I am a compliance officer and fraud investigator in my day job.

The winning bidder pays 5% of the purchase price. You, the seller, can not bid on your own car but someone you know can do that. Bat gets their commission regardless of who buys it, so how is that fraud?

Live, in person auctions are  even worse. In some cases the house will by your car if it's cheap enough.

[mdsalemi]

The winning bidder pays 5% of the purchase price. You, the seller, can not bid on your own car but someone you know can do that. Bat gets their commission regardless of who buys it, so how is that fraud?

Live, in person auctions are  even worse. In some cases the house will by your car if it's cheap enough.

It's like Las Vegas or any casino. The house always wins. There's a buyer's premium and often the seller pays a percentage or fee, so no matter what happens to the buyers or sellers, the house always wins.

If your friend is bidding for him/her self, I suppose nothing wrong with that, but one would ask why would you place a car for auction when you have a friend willing to buy? Makes no sense. If the friend is bidding on your behalf, that's against the "house rules". Just like "counting cards" in the casino. Against the house rules. But with every rule there's someone trying to break the rule or game the system.

I went to a number of on-site live equipment auctions for printing and computer equipment back in the 1990s. Was much like a car auction. Never won anything, prices were driven up beyond value (I always ended up buying what I needed on the free market in private transactions; the auctions didn't work) So, I've seen enough and heard enough nonsense that go on at auctions, not certain I'd ever participate again.

[Benz Dr.]

I can't verify this, but I've heard that 1/3 of BJ auctions are bought back by the owners. If you aren't there to protect your investment, it might go for peanuts and if they will only take no reserve cars, this is why so many sell this way. And, they make 20% from the buyer/seller which would be you if you buy your own car back.

And, what they don't tell you before you consign a car is that you will be hit with city and State taxes when you buy ( AZ ) unless you are a dealer or you have the car shipped out of State. I went to one of their dog and pony shows once. Not a place to sell your car unless you have something special.

[Vander]

One of the key components that made Bring a Trailer so successful is bringing transparency to the industry. First to even be able to bid on the car you have to submit your credit card, and the second you place a bid it puts 5% of the bid on hold on your card. Transparency comes in as you can click any username and see what they have ever done on the history of the site. Bids, comments, selling, how long they've been a member, etc.

Due to this transparency shill bidding is going to be far less than any other site, such as Ebay for example. And most certainly lower than in-person auction houses. If shill bidding ever takes place on the site it is going to be from an individual selling one car and having his friend do it, not a reputable dealer. Because the after the individual sells the car he doesn't care what happens, he's done.

The dealer has to show back up, again and again and again. Bring a Trailer has actually been a good strainer, filtering the good from the bad. Bad dealers and wanna be dealers fizzle out, or are called out and questioned by the community. Even those that have registered under different usernames have been identified and had their auctions withdrawn by BaT.

I see your final question was how to deal with shill bidding, if you are selling a car, operate with integrity and don't ask anyone to place a bid as a catalyst for your auction. Represent the car honestly, accurately, and the best to your ability and let the chips fall where they may.

[George3]

I just sold a r107 500sl on BAT. It wasn't my car, a good friend asked me to help. I found the whole process very user friendly. I took the time to shoot a very detailed video and also many still pictures. I provided as much info as possible. Then their own writers wrote the description. The communication was good from the site. Asking me for input and any edits I wanted. As far as reserve. I wanted an 18k reserve which I thought was realistic. BAT wanted it as a no reserve sale. My guess is in their opinion it would struggle to meet reserve. If they are going to put the time in, they want their 5%. On the other side of that, a no reserve auction can attract a lot of interest from bidders thinking there's a chance to get a great deal. It finally sold for 16k. The owner was happy with that. As far as Shilling, (Not heard of that term) but I received a note from BAT that it is prohibited. As with all sales you have to be on your guard, ask the right questions and be honest. The buyer told me afterwards the video is what sold him. I made sure to point out all the pros and cons in as much detail as possible. I would definitely use BAT again to sell a car.
Good Luck with your sale.

[teahead]

I only sold (a old BMW 2002) w/no reserve.

Be prepared with LOTS of pictures, driving videos so prevent a lot of stupid questions.

Be prepared to answer frequently.  I.e. you must monitor the auction the whole 7 days constantly.  Kind of a PITA if you have a life.

I think if you have a European car in great demand (Pagodas, BMW E9s, Porsches), you'll be fine most of the time.  Japanese/US cars, dont garner as much (unless something uber in demand like an R34 GTR or super low mileage rare US car).

[dirkbalter]

I just saw that.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/man-selling-g-class-on-bat-accidentally-bids-on-own-car-and-wins/ar-AA1gXelR?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=5e569fd0020e45f799cb92f653326b3d&ei=23#image=AA1gX5Nk|3