Author Topic: shaking pagode  (Read 6109 times)

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shaking pagode
« on: August 21, 2005, 13:50:31 »
Could somebody help me out, where to start solving the problem of my shaking 250SL 1967. When not driving, the engine runs smooth with a
happy sound, without any hesitation going up in RPM's when hitting the accelerator. When driving, all occurs to be the same: a good sound, a happy engine and going up fast and joyfull. The problem starts, the moment I want to drive steady at low speed. The car starts shaking me as if it tells me: "lets accelerate man!! go!!" and after a short while I can't hold it anymore and have no other option as to accelerate or to stop. To complete this story: a mechanic told me that the injection-pump was set to idle, but he did not dare to touch the pump: it's sealed. As last: the Mercedes dealer had no clue; they just checked the Co2 and that was over 8. "to rich" they whispered, but they did not dare to touch the pump either. What now ?

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Benz Dr.

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2005, 15:35:57 »
Could be the pump is not working right. 8 % is very rich. Not sure if this is causing the car to shake or not. A bent rim will make the car really shake depending on how bad it is....

I'd fire the MB dealer and your other guy. Neither will be much help to you anyway.

Dan Caron's
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benzbarn@ebtech.net
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1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
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1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Raymond

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2005, 16:31:03 »
By "Shake", do you mean the engine misfires and runs rough?  When you say you either have to stop or accelerate, do you mean the engine will quit if you don't accelerate?  

And, did this just start suddenly?  Were you driving the car regularly and this just suddenly began or did the symptoms appear minor and gradually get worse?

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
Ray
'68 280SL 5-spd "California" Coupe

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2005, 04:51:18 »
Thanks Dan and Raymond.
Let me tell a bit more; perhaps it will help.
I did buy the car in 1996. It was a memory out of my time as student. I saw the car brandnew in 1967 and wished ever to be able to buy such a dream. That happend in 1996: I gained a mess of parts and a stripped chassis: someone had plans to start rebuild this car but he could not get enough help to get the job done. I had a good network and got the job done in three years: in 1999 the car was brandnew from top to bottum; all original with a finish from Maas in Groningen, the most famous Pagode rebuilder in The Neterlands. The injection pump was rebuilded my Mercedes in Stuttgart and delivered brandnew and sealed. Maas handed me the car June 1999 and told me that the car was running to idle, but he would NOT touch the pump, because it was sealed by Mercedes. I did not take further action, because the engine did run wonderfull. The continuing story is a short one: I did have no time at all to enjoy the car: the only thing I did was, at least, twice a year drive the car for about 50 mls to
warm it up. The shaking started this spring, and now, that I have (at last !!) some time to use the car more frequently, the shaking is going worse and worse; and indeed: there are slight backfires when I loose the accelerator. The engin never died: it keeps running whatever move I make.
That's about it: do I make any sense ?

Raymond

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2005, 17:10:09 »
Runs fine accelerating, but not at steady RPM and backfires when decelerating. Hmmm. There are folks on this site who know tons more than I, but let's think about a vacuum leak in the distributor line. Or, sticky injectors from fuel that sat too long.  OR,could the Cold Start Valve be leaking?

Have you pulled the plugs to see if they are really black from the over rich mixture?  Have you checked the timing and the operation of the vacuum advance on the distributor?  
Do your mechanics know how to adjust the mixture on the back of the FI pump?  There are several threads explaining that.

If you let it sit for six months at a time for five years, did you change the fuel filter before you started driving it regularly?

By the way, if you run an excessively rich mixture too long, you risk glazing the cylinders because you are washing the oil off of the cylinder walls with too much gas.  

Sorry about all the questions, but I can't see your car from here.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
Ray
'68 280SL 5-spd "California" Coupe

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2005, 14:13:57 »
Raymond: I did find an article in Pagode113.com from George D, about the Basic Fuel Injection Linkage adjustment and Idle Adjustment Procedures: you can find it under "How-To's". I guess my best option is to hand this procedures to a mechanic, capeble to follow this instruction line by line. I am not such a hero in mechanics, so, I never would dare to try this myself. Perhaps I can best ask the mechanic in person who was capeble to solve a problem I had, some years ago, with my R129. Would you do the same ?

Raymond

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 16:21:43 »
Well, it seems obvious that you need a mechanic who respects the car and not fears it.  If you have someone who is familiar with Mercs of the 1960s that's the fellow you want.  

Your problem won't be the linkage.  That wouldn't cause the misfiring.  And if it was working "wonderfully" as you said and if nothing was messed with, then the linkage shouldn't have changed.  It doesn't sound like electrical because it accelerates well.  You know it is too rich, but adjusting is for adjusting not fixing.  If something is malfunctioning, you may be able to adjust around it for a bit, but it won't stay correct.  These systems are a balancing act.  So, giving the adjustment procedures to a mechanic who doesn't understand that may start you chasing your tail.  However, it may instruct the mechanic about the system as he goes through it.  

I still think your guy should look for a leak in the fuel or air flows somewhere.  If there is air leaking into the intake manifold, it may be sucking enough to lean the mixture too much when not accelerating.  If the cold start valve is leaking, it can put too much fuel in the intake unless you are accelerating and burning or passing the excess fuel.  If there is a leak in the vacuum to the distributor it might goof up your timing until you hit the gas.

If you don't want to try it yourself, find a mechanic who knows the cars well, or make sure you find one who thinks it is cool and wants to learn about it.  Good luck.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
Ray
'68 280SL 5-spd "California" Coupe

Cees Klumper

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 07:21:21 »
I just replaced my injection pump with a rebuilt one, alass one that has sat for probably a few years, and my car now is displaying very similar symptoms. The cold start valve seems to be shutting off ok, no air leaks I can find, the ignition works like it always did. I have my own CO meter and by now am pretty good at getting the idle CO to exactly where I want it (I set it at 4%).
All I changed was the FI pump so that should be the culprit. I am considering driving it some more to let the pump "settle-in" (it was never installed after having been rebuilt), and if that fails, I will be putting my old pump back in and sending the rebuilt one off to a proper outfit to test. I was hoping for an improvement, although the car was running quite allright with the old pump.

Leo - since we are both in the Netherlands, maybe we can organize a mini-amateur-tech-session next spring together?

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
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1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
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enochbell

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 09:04:18 »
It is hard to come up with a reason the pump would work well at one RPM and not another, and if their was a problem here I would expect it to be OK at idle and progressively worse at speed.  But just to be sure, Cees are you absolutely sure the pump collar's timing mark was dead on when you reassembled?  Was the rebuilt pump exactly the same as the old one (the timing for older pumps is very different than for newer ones, but reading your posts I assume you are already all over that possibility)?

LiekLb, I was more inclined to worry about a worn or non-functioning mechanical advance in the distributor, which would cause poor mid-range performance when vacuum was not getting the timing advance you need, this problem would also show up as a progressive (over time) issue.  I understand the Doc has rebuilt a million of these and may offer some advice.  The other real puzzle is the backfire on liftoff; that would tell you the manifold was getting fuel somehow, which I think is a telltale: I can only induce a "burble" or very slight backfire if I slightly depress the throttle when the car is in negative acceleration and in gear.  Have you checked the throttle damper?

Sorry for the ramble, but this is an interesting challenge I hope you can resolve and disclose.  It flies in the face of the medical addage that maintains that complex, seemingly multi-variate problems usually have a single root: parsimony is the word for the day.

Best,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

Cees Klumper

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 11:15:43 »
Hello 'g' - I installed the pump with the timing notch in the same spot as the pump that came out. It has the exact same number as the old pump that came out (both are sedan pumps). I don't think there can be a '180 degrees off' there, and I understand from previous posts that a difference of a few degrees won't affect performance, due to these being indirect injection systems. Thanks for the other thoughts, I will keep checking.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
« Last Edit: August 26, 2005, 11:19:53 by cees klumper »
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
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1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
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1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2005, 14:43:12 »
wow ! reading the comments, advises and problems, I guess I created a kind if boobytrap for myself. As I told already in another topic : (where to find a mechanic) I am a goofy in car-technics. I really don't have two left hands, but the idea that I would have to start surgery at my dream would get me sleepless nights, even if it was just about the question how to prevent a scratch when bending over to the engine-compartment. :x  So..Cees...if you really are interested in an amateur-technics-session you are welcome but only with your partner and only if you stay for dinner  :) . I just keep looking for someone in my neighborhood to help me out. Perhaps Ted will be here in a few weeks (slap me Ted... ;) )but I guess that will be more social as technical. Want to join Cees ?  :)  Anyways: thanks all for your comment; I really appreciate it !
Leo

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Re: shaking pagode
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2005, 14:07:12 »
I worked some more on the car today. To recap: after replacing the injection pump with a rebuilt one, there was quite a bit of hesitation, accelerating from low-RPMs. I had previously adjusted the ignition timing (to what I thought was factory-specs and the same way I had done before) and adjusted the idle CO mixture. The problem persisted.
It turned out to be the ignition timing after all. Not enough advance. I reset it without a timing light, 'going by ear'. I advanced it until it started to miss a little at idle, then backed it off a bit. This raised the idle RPMs a bit, which I adjusted with the air screw on the intake manifold, and the idle mixture screw at the back of the FI pump. Now the car runs smooth and strong, as it did before I decided to 'fix something that was not broken'.

I need to go over the ignition timing procedure once again, and will check to make sure that the "0" mark on the flywheel is in fact at TDC.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 14:08:39 by cees klumper »
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II