Author Topic: M129 idling issues  (Read 2068 times)

Heckflosse

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M129 idling issues
« on: May 21, 2024, 23:58:37 »
Hi from Alberta Canada!
I'm new to vintage Mercedes but not new to the old car hobby, having rebuilt and restored a number of Buicks and Oldsmobiles, yeah, I know, totally different animals.

So the problems I'm having are this; the engine will not idle, and the vacuum at 1000+ RPM is sitting at around 12 inches of vacuum, set the idle any lower and it's like throwing a switch, the car dies instantly. Now I've rebuilt the Zeniths, they were plugged up. I've replaced the fuel pump, filters and cleared out the fuel lines, both outlet and return, and drained off the tank. Screw plug is cleaned, the donut in the tank is clear, and the tank is so far free of rust. I now have fuel aplently, and the car starts right up better than it did before.

So I thought it was ignition; verified that the timing is correct and that the marks on the cam line up with the balancer, and there's no real slack in the chain. Redid the points, had good spark, and then replaced it all with electronic ignition, so now I have better spark and it's on time.

So I have gas and spark. Still no good. Compression is down a bit, 135, 125, 130, 115, 130, 135. Checked and redid the valve lash as per the manual, that is now set. Runs a bit smoother, but still getting backfire through the carb and a pronounced miss out the back.

So now it's looking like it's the cam. I have 2 more cams, both the same number, 1800518601, both with 86 on the back. The lobes on the two spares look a lot better than the one in the car which looks worn. I quick check with a micrometer shows that the one in the car is almost a millimeter shorter than the other two, plus there's a fair bit of wear showing on the lobes. Ok, how about oiling; - yes, the tube still flows oil, made a rather large mess proving it.

How difficult is it to shove one of these other cams in? Would it even be worth a try? Am I missing something obvious here?
Do I have to take the towers off? Or can I just release the rockers, turn out the bolt holding the timing chain gear and carefully waddle it out? Obviously, I'd measure off the journals before installing one of the others to see if it won't knock.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, I do intend to rebuild this motor completely, just not at this point. I still have no idea where to source pistons, rings, valves, etc. yet. I just want to get this thing running again so I can get some other issues attended to. The engine has 70K miles on it, and it appears to have spent a lot of time sitting, there's quite a bit of rust on the underside of that cam.

In case anyone is interested, the car is a 1966 W111 230S with a 1967 250S motor in it, standard transmission. The body is completely rust free so I'd like to keep this car.

Benz Dr.

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2024, 02:48:36 »
You have low compression but it should still run well enough.
 I have found that you need to have the carbs synced or it will never run properly. You can find carb synchronizers on line and just follow the instructions. Both carbs have to open at the same amount and at the same time or you will get back fires and poor running.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2024, 04:49:30 »
Thanks, that's what I've done, even so far as to get a vacuum manometer on them, here's what's funny; - if I blank off one of the carbs, the RPM picks up to 1500 or so. It will not run at all with the mixture screw turned in to 2 turns and the throttle plates level; - it will only run when on the power circuit.

Even with the valve lash set properly, there's a lot of spitting out the back end, and it sounds like multiple cylinders. And it will spit back out the rear carb at 1000 rpm every minute or so as the fuel builds up.

A little background; the car ran well enough when I got it, and so I put some new plugs in it, did an oil change, overhauled the carbs to try and take care of a hesitation issue, and then scoped it. Compression at that time was 10 lbs more across the board, vacuum at idle was low, about 12. Then it ran beautifully, and I thought I got the problem solved. Well, it didn't take 2 hours, and then it wouldn't accelerate, it would backfire out the exhaust violently and spit back through the carbs under load, and then it refused to idle. And that's where it's still at. I should note that the carbs had been overhauled (by me) 3 weeks before this occurred, so it wasn't the carbs going out of whack.

So here's what I'm thinking; - the cam is wiped, the duration is a lot longer than permissible and the valves aren't opening up enough, - so at low speeds, the engine doesn't seal up enough for good compression and dies off. Excess fuel either sits in the intake as a result of next to no vacuum, and the miss I hear out the back is because the exhaust valves stay open too long don't open enough either.

Does anyone have any other possible explanation for this, yes, I agree, it sounds like it should be simple enough, and I do keep getting this feeling I'm overlooking something really simple, but I've done all the preliminary "start with a dead engine" stuff. It's not that, I have plenty of spark, I have plenty of gas, both pump and return circuit are up to par, I've checked for vacuum leaks on the manifolds, carbs and bases, and the power brake booster, and that turns up fine. The carbs themselves are good clean Zeniths from the same engine, numbers and jetting match for the 250, and the throttle plates are in good shape and not loose. Needle and seats are checked and don't leak, accelerator pumps are new and put out a full shot, the fine passages are all clean (mechanically cleaned as well as chemically) and they were perfectly set to match when I put them on.

Spark is also good and strong; - it's an electronic ignition, can't remember off hand which company it came from, it was a Dutch outfit and the distributor curve  is properly set up for this engine.

So yes, it appears I'm over thinking this thing, because it was basically running acceptably one minute and then like a toilet the next, but everything I've recently read about camshaft failure is pointing to this, the misses in the exhaust, poor idle, low vacuum, and the physical damage of the lobes actually being close to a full millimetre shorter and flatter looking than the other 2 cams I have as spares.

I guess if swapping the cam out doesn't work, then the whole thing is coming apart anyway, I don't know what else to do here. I just really didn't want to have to do that now. I know that engine is on borrowed time, it was when it ran.

And since I've never swapped a cam in a Mercedes before, I was wondering what precautions, or what tricks I have to do to swap it out without destroying anything else. If this was an American car it'd be a lot more forgiving with ham-fisted mechanics than this thing seems to be.

ctaylor738

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2024, 18:49:13 »
It's very common for these carburetors to have vacuum leaks between the cover and the body and cause the symptoms that you describe.

In addition, you may have plugged idle air tubes.  Try plugging them with your finger and see if the idle changes.

Cheers,

CT
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2024, 00:32:06 »
Thanks, already checked for that, it's unfortunately not the issue. You're absolutely right, the symptoms are the same, and I though that was the problem. So I went in and redid the carbs first. The idle circuit tubes were initially plugged before I rebuilt them the second time, but not now. Ethanol gas is a wonderful thing and these cars just thrive on it, I'm told. Ok, I'm being sarcastic. 

The engine had ran Ok for 3 weeks after I rebuilt the carbs and tuned it the first time, (with complete new kits). The only complaint then was that it was incredibly hard to start cold, it took a lot of gas pedal pumping to get it to start.  The idle circuit was a bit off, so I did that check and they were clogged. I've rectified that with the second rebuild, again with new kits, just to be sure. (after the engine failed) Gaskets were properly matched up with the originals, and all diaphragms were leak tested as well.  I'm pretty sure there are no leaks, and spraying carb cleaner all over them while running did nothing at all.

Before it died it seemed that the carbs "flipped"; on idle the front one was prevalent, and on acceleration the back one came alive and the front one dropped off. It had a wicked stumble as a result. That's what I thought the problem was at first, so I took extra care to redo the carbs correctly and by the book this last time. It also had 13 inches of vacuum on idle at that point and the compression was 145, 150, 135, 140, 145, 145. At the time, there was no adjustment I could make that would improve the vacuum profile. Now it's a lot worse, (see above) and that after 3 short weeks of run time.

It starts now with a pump of the gas pedal, and then as it comes down off the initial pump and returns to the idle circuit it's like turning the engine off.

It's difficult to check the idle circuit because the engine will not run at all below 1000 rpm, and it threatens to die when run at a constant speed. However, I get good action and positive throttle response when I gun the motor, - until it spits and backfires out either end. Trying to move it, it has absolutely no power at all, it has to be revved up, the gas pedal feathered, and the clutch slipped a lot and then it wants to die, it will not pull, only fart and sputter out both ends. It stumbles and wants to die every time the vacuum gauge needle drops below 9, - and at 1000-1100 rpm, it's the only way it will run. And then the needle on the vacuum gauge wanders between 9-12, with the rpm increasing at the high end, and then dropping off.

The carbs have new gaskets and were checked for flatness on a lapping table or with a straight edge. The intake manifold was off and checked, and the gaskets replaced. Brake booster off line and plugged.

I'm going to try and get a hold of smoke kit just to be sure on the vacuum leaks since it will not even run in the idle circuit. That will likely be the last test and then I have to conclude it's either a cam issue or that motor is just junk. There's really no other thing it can be by that point, all the basics are there and it should run.

Yeah, it's a real head scratcher, I've never had a car do something like this before and I've hauled out some real crusty bush buggies in the past that never gave me the grief this thing is doing right now. I was lead to believe Mercedes 6 cylinders of this era were bullet proof and would withstand a lot of abuse. It appears that isn't the case, this thing is wiped out at 70,000 miles. (Ok, I'll give it that it's 60 years old.)

My apologies for the long winded replies, I just want to make sure all the information is as clear as I can get it.

Benz Dr.

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2024, 01:47:57 »
Your carbs are not synchronized. I had the same problem on a 230S last year.

You can spend a lot of time chasing your tail on those cars.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2024, 03:01:46 »
Then can you please tell me the easiest way to synchronize them?

I've set and reset the carbs now at least 5 times, always with exactly the same results. There is no change in the car's running at any setting. The same problems are apparent, backfiring through both the carbs and the exhaust, as well as a three note miss. There is no vacuum below 1000 rpm, it falls right off immediately. Stepping on the gas attempting to move means a misfiring in the manifold as well as a huge explosion out the back. That's also with floats set lean or rich, it doesn't matter, it's doing this regardless of what I do.

I started with both throttle plates closed at rest, mixture screws turned 1.5 turns out. Bowl vents are clear and moving, no pressure on the bowl vent lever. Idle tubes are clear. Both floats are set to the factory specification with the same amount and type of washers in them. Travel on the floats is the same. Both floats are water tight. Triple checked that as well.
Jets cleaned and measured, all gaskets and washers replaced with new.

Choke plates both set identically.

Valve lash is set.

It will start instantly set like this, but it dies instantly as the rpm comes down, it will not even attempt to idle. The only way to idle it is to open up the throttle plates, ie set the idle speed. That's where it is right now, throttle plates are open about 1/4 inch, and it's still misfiring in the rear carb and trying to blow the muffler apart.

ctaylor738

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2024, 12:15:22 »
You can synch the carbs with an air flow meter like this one. You put it over each carb in turn and equalize the air flow by adjusting the throttle openings.  This, with all the linkages disconnected and the engine "idling" as best you can get it.  Then you reconnect the linkage, adjusting it so it does not disturb the settings.

https://www.amazon.com/Edelbrock-4025-CARB-SYNCHRONIZER/dp/B00062YC2E/ref=sr_1_23?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Heyy372pcizhuKNYhAuJJUau_zjMZ_I1SmPYwkp_WE8xUlRqN-q-nIdFRJgdLONCcMcaCrwtxfsjXUV6E2uTbmFhIUvCOPzcXTMHu1RCgt78hQU4jHyQ3Iwp2GapzNU6btdzewdfaTRUdC_e9R-VApL6w_32E-Iy-2JxkX3Byo7C5G80OJ9BPrSgL2lrT1VThd2SmssTiR0f8v9X9K664A1ZDB7i_amhLoyKWhVHui7j6w0343_tXNBZAxXJh36bAiieBFVNZOjCpySW5Z66wpImDvxq4CnbziaE1gjxb18.3a66pDev14ICF4OzXgNTX1lnVuMWq8tY8WxFeem1Kgs&dib_tag=se&keywords=carburetor+synchronizer&qid=1716551910&sr=8-23

A less elegant way is with a piece of heater hose, one end at the carb throat and the other next to your ear.  With the engine running, listen to each carb and try to equalize the sound of the air moving through the throats. I am not making this up.

But I think you need to figure out the vacuum situation.  Can you do the screwdriver-in-#1-sparkplug-hole to verify TDC?

Cheers,

CT



Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2024, 20:54:10 »
Thanks gentlemen, I don't think the carbs are the issue.

I've done all of what you've described, and what Pierre Hedary described to do in the video, and also went to the Zenith troubleshooting section. Even watched a couple of German videos on tuning these things. I tried the tube idea first as it had worked before on an MG I had done, but got scared to put my ear to a tube on this car because sometimes there's been fire.

 Airflow is indistinct and not consistent on either carb, trying to idle the rpm wanders and the air surges go up and down, especially through the back carb, which then spits out flame every so often. Don't know which side is filling the muffler full of fuel though.

So I bought that air flow meter. Can barely get a reading on it, even at 1000+ rpm. Modified a funnel to securely fit the throat, because it doesn't cover right out of the box. Still no real reading, the ball just stays in the bottom quarter and barely moves, when it does it goes up a notch and then drops off, and then repeats pretty consistently.

Absolutely no improvement noted, at all. In fact, absolutely no change noted, only better grade explosions when more fuel is added. With valve lash set it's a little smoother and the time between explosions is more consistent and predictable.

TDC and cam timing was verified, 3 times at last count. No slack in the chain. Ignition is timed and verified. No vacuum leaks found, but little to no vacuum at 1000+ rpm.

Everything is pointing to the fact that the cam is wiped. 

Benz Dr.

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2024, 22:02:36 »
You can replace the cam without removing the head. Remove all of the head bolts but leave the chain case screws in place. As long as you don't break the seal between the head and block you should be OK.
Remove the nuts that hold the cam bearings in place and remove the oiler tube. After you remove the chain tensioner you should have enough slack to remove the cam gear. Zip tie the chain on to the gear before you remove it. The gear should slide off the camshaft with light taps with a plastic hammer.

You might want to remove the valve rockers and will need to for access to the cam tower nuts.

Sounds like you tried everything with the carbs so the cam is a decent call.  :)
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

ctaylor738

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2024, 13:05:44 »
Broken record here.

The behavior with the Unisyn is exactly what I saw with air leaking past the top plates.  Or a vacuum leak somewhere else.  The running engine is demanding air and if it's not getting it through the carbs, it's coming from someplace else.  If it's not pulling air through the carbs where it would be mixed with fuel, it will go lean and backfire like you describe.

And I think you should verify TDC when the balancer and pointer are lined up.

Cheers,

CT
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

ja17

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2024, 05:28:13 »
Still sounds like carbs to me. Are you using the factory set-up procedure for these carbs? It is about twelve pages long. I've seen some very incorrect and misleading information posted on YouTube about these Zenith carbs. At some point in time, you'll have to start out with a fresh set of plugs again. All the fumbling around can wreck them. Make sure the secondary flaps are completely closed at idle. Make sure the float level is correct. Are you getting any reaction using the idle adjustment screws? Fuel discharge tubes must both squirt a nice solid stream of fuel immediately when linkage is moved or the engine will cough or backfire through the carbs. 
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2024, 03:17:24 »
Yes, I followed the factory procedure for setting up the carbs. Yes, the pump shot is good and even aimed right. Vacuum leaks have been eliminated, and I don't think the centre screw issue is at play here, I didn't torque up the covers and the gasket wear looks uniform. Bowl vents were taken apart and cleared, and the springs tested. The return line is clear and it all works as it should.

Using the mixtures screws does absolutely nothing. I even tried both completely screwed in, and again screwed out to the point of falling out, one in and one out, and so on, no change at all. It will not run on the idle circuit at all, period. It's like turning the key off, not even a cough, just instant death.

Normally, I would agree with everything that has been said about carburation issues, because this looks like classic operator incompetence. But there is one very import aspect that has been completely ignored here, the fact that the engine has very low vacuum. In order to get 10 inches of vacuum, I have to run the engine at over 1000 rpm. the moment I cut it back the vacuum falls completely off, as in instantaneously.

According to Pierre Hedary, these carbs need about 15 inches to function properly, anything less than that and they don't work. And that's part of the problem, I can't do a good syncro on these things because I can't even get it to run right. For all I know the secondaries might be trying to dump fuel because they are seeing low vacuum. (that might explain the rich burning and the acrid smell) Throttle response is good, so I know the accelerator pumps work, it starts like it should, so I know it's getting gas. With full choke the running is no better or worse than with no choke, and if there was a vacuum leak, it would run better on full choke. There is absolutely no difference how it runs, it flat out refuses to run at anything less than over 1000 rpm. Yes, TDC was verified, and there is little to no stretch in the chain, and the cam lines up as it should.

At higher speeds; the spitting back through the rear carb is more pronounced and can actually be timed. (there's flame too) Same with the exhaust note, I count 3 misses. Previously it only had one.  Changing anything with timing or fuel makes absolutely no difference, none at all, no increase in vacuum, no change in the popping and farting, nothing. This is why I'm leaning to a mechanical issue, I do believe the cam is worn out, I don't know how well the upper cylinder area is oiling, and this engine is rumored to have sat motionless for close to 20 years. Apparently the oiling tube has a tendency to plug up, and the previous owner didn't do regular oil changes. (Judging by the colour of the crap I dumped out of there, I don't know if one was done at all since the motor was installed, and the filter was a discontinued old make) The cam lobes themselves look very worn and polished on the contact surfaces which appear flatter than the spare cams I have, and yes, the numbers on all cams are the same. So the lift is a minimum of a millimeter lower and the lobe peak is flatter on all lobes, not just one. So yes, the motor runs, and with the valves set, it tries to run "round", but the idle at 1000 rpm is not steady nor is it stable, it wants to die. Max vacuum gunning the engine gets to about 18, with a very shaky needle, (indicative of valvetrain failure) - it should peg over 25, and then it instantaneously falls off to nothing.

So I agree, it should and feels a lot like a carb issue, but any carb issues I've ever dealt with there is usually a change apparent whenever something is changed. In this case there no change whatsoever, and the carbs have been on and off and apart multiple times now.

So that's why I'm leaning towards a cam failure or a couple of burnt valves. The next test has to be a leakdown test if I can get the equipment.

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2024, 03:35:54 »
Another point; while running the engine at it's 1000 rpm, I covered over both carbs, and shut off the air. The engine died. If it had a vacuum leak, it would have picked up in rpm. So it's pulling through the carbs as expected. Cover one carb up, rpm increases and it starts smoking black, and that goes for either carb. Since an engine is a big air pump, it appears this one is getting more than it can deal with, here again, leans towards valvetrain issues.

Fuel delivery is no issue. The plugs were new; I put them in before this all started - and right now they are blacker than your favourite politician's soul.

So long duration and short lift; - what does that equate? Should be able to deal with it through ignition timing; - well, no, no difference at all, I marked off BTDC 10 degrees and 15 degrees, it didn't like any of that. No improvement at any position except at TDC, there it's the happiest, if you can call it that.

I'm facing up to the fact that I was around for this engine's last gasp; - and I think it's had it. To shove another cam into it is a "Hail Mary" pass, I'll probably have to tear it down.

Benz Dr.

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2024, 16:14:36 »
Just a hunch. Check your ignition wires. If you have any carbon core in the system it will run poorly. Your black spark plugs are an indication of running rich which could be low voltage.
At any rate, you need to find a set of new spark plugs with a high heat range. You can't tune an engine with fouled plugs. Likely why it's backfiring.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

ja17

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2024, 00:26:17 »
You won't develop good vacuum if the engine is running rough and missing.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2024, 02:52:57 »
Plugs are new, just a little sooty. They are NGK, couldn't get Bosch platinum. Stock heat range for the 250S. Properly gapped. I replaced the regular ignition with a 123 electonic set, new coil, and the plug wires came from a Mercedes vendor and have the steel covers; - not sure if they are carbon core, I'll check that. Ballast resistor is out of the equation, as per 123's instructions. Timing and TDC is verified, as is firing order. No slack on the chain, engine was not turned backwards either. Spark appears to be good and on time when I tested it. Amperage and voltage and everything is there.

 It ran well enough on this stuff before, why all of a sudden it quit is the mystery.

Yes, the engine misses and backfires. Yes, it doesn't respond to tuning. Any tuning, at at all. No, I don't believe there are any vacuum leaks. It starts immediately, one pump of the gas. Just dies as the rpm drop. Idle set to 1000 plus, in order to get vacuum up from less than ten at that point.  Throttle response is crisp, it revs right up, no stumble. Doesn't have any power. It misfires smoothly; has a fairly steady purr to it. It runs lousy very well; - I think I've optimized all the tuning parameters, it's got to be the most responsive, no idling, misfiring POS in the world right now, and that's why I'm leaning to a mechanical issue, tuning doesn't work. I've tuned hundreds of cars, and I've never come across something like this before except on a high mileage engine that was known to have a shot cam and was completely worn out.

Honestly gentlemen, if it was that simple I would have found it by now. I probably have 200 hours of troubleshooting in on this engine by this point. That's what makes this so frustrating. Check the carbs, check the fuel, check the ignition, check the timing. Open the carbs up, check something or an adjustment, replace them back on the car, set throttle shafts to idle, start the car, feather the gas pedal or hold it open so it runs, and then pop the linkages off and start adjusting throttles and mixtures. Nothing changes, nothing at all. Watch the vacuum gauge, which normally should register something, but in this case it does nothing but stays at 10 and that's only if I'm quick off the snap back with a touch of throttle. Otherwise it just does what it does best, wheezes and dies. I can do Zeniths in my sleep at this point, I know every part in them. I have 6 of the animals, and have replaced anything that appears suspect on the 2 that originally came off this engine and didn't have worn out throttle shafts.
 
(they weren't on the car when I got it, the set that was on there had worn out throttle shafts and I suspected and confirmed a vacuum leak)

All passages in the carb were measured and cleared, in some cases mechanically. One of the other things I do is build old pocket watches, so I'm very particular to detail and fine work, and I'm very patient. My patience with this engine is coming to an end; - I'll try a cam swap, and if that doesn't help, it's coming out and it's getting rebuilt. And then start all over again with good known mechanicals.

This engine is performing like it's completely exhausted and worn out, not just "tired" anymore. The horse has died and continually flogging it isn't helping anyway.

Benz Dr.

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  • Benz Dr.
Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2024, 06:13:55 »
Stock spark pug heat range is too cold - go up two ranges. New Bosch wires often have a carbon core coil wire. Save the ends and get a new piece of metal spark plug cable. Set plug gap to at least .032'' and with electronic you can open up gap to .035''  Spark plug ends should be 1K ohm. Remove all other resistors on the plug wires for optimum performance.

Ignition has to be fully functional before carb tuning.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

ja17

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2024, 15:46:10 »
Some owners who can't figure out the Zenith carbs, opt for the Weber conversion (much simpler).
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

ctaylor738

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2024, 16:37:02 »
On the way to changing out the camshaft, why not try moving the timing chain one tooth on the cam sprocket in either direction? I.e, one tooth forward, then two teeth back?

Cheers,

CT
Chuck Taylor
1963 230SL #00133
1970 280SL #13027 (restored and sold)
1966 230SL #15274 (sold)
1970 280SL #14076 (sold)
Falls Church VA

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2024, 02:27:32 »
Yeah, I thought of it, but i don't think it will help much. The chain lines up really well and there is no slack in it it, the car builds phenomenal oil pressure, so the compensator works well.

The cam may or may not be the problem; - the engine builds no vacuum except at high rpm. I checked that today, it will stay running at 1400-1500 rpm anything less, and it just dies like someone shut of the key. So I do have to do a leak down test before I pull it apart. It does have compression, and that's what's funny; normally a shot valve train wouldn't build much. But my previously highest cylinder is now my lowest cylinder, and the other ones have degraded significantly.

So I'm thinking it wore out to the point of not being able to run. The change was gradual over the day, and I admittedly drove the snot out of it.

The carbs are working fine. they were placed on a buddy's 230 over the weekend and they idled beautifully. That engine took a tune readily and the adjustments worked. So I left the settings, and put them back on my engine. No change, still runs like an absolute toilet, but a better grade of crappy, it's smoother and still has crisp throttle response. Still won't entertain an idle though, and still no vacuum. The plug wires are German steel ones, not carbon core.

I have a funny feeling this engine sat around for about 20 years; - it stood in a corner of the previous owner's place for about 5 that I know of. So I have no idea how the oiling up top is, I'm getting the impression that the oil tube above the cam is partially plugged because every time I open it up it's pretty dry in there. If it is dry, that will wipe a cam in a hurry.

So depending upon what the leakdown tests tell me, that engine will likely have to come apart. I hear these motors used aren't that expensive in the US, but shipping it up here to Canada is similar in cost to shipping to the moon, so that may not be a viable option, but I'll look into it.

Anyone know where there's a good non-oil burning spare 230S or 250S motor kicking around, preferably 1966-68? It has to be the standard transmission one though. I'm not set up to do the conversion to fuel injection either, so it has to be carbureted.

Heckflosse

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Re: M129 idling issues
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2024, 02:59:41 »
UPDATE :
So today the cam got swapped out. It was an ugly job, but we got it done.
The improvements were immediate once the cam started to run in; - I was able to knock the idle down a bit, and it has stopped misfiring and sputtering. Vacuum profile wasn't great, but it was immediately better than it was earlier. The needle is very bouncy, indicating poor seating, and possibly a few burning valves.  It still needs a valve lash, the cam I shoved in was possibly slightly different in that it was thicker, and a lot of my pedestals are bottomed out. The book says to used thinner keepers or whatever they're called. I'll have to see if I have some.
Took it for a drive; - something that was impossible in the morning when I started this job. It's not very powerful, it has a bog, so that's probably a tuning issue. Otherwise throttle response is good and it will lope along in second or third gear just fine. It will actually hold on to an idle at a light, albeit it's still way too high to be comfortable. Massive improvement from earlier.
So, the motor is a boat anchor, the vacuum is still way too low, and I'll do a compression test to confirm later. But at least it will move again.

So carbs and tuning aren't always the answer; sometimes one just has to accept that the motor has decided it was "tired" and wants to be rebuilt.
Checked the lift on the old one once out, the lobes were over 2mm less than the cam I installed. It was wiped, and the low compression cylinders were worn worse than the higher ones. I have no idea how long this one will last, as it's running in it's improving, so it's probably prematurely wearing out. I ensured that the oil tube was clean and clear; - I have great oil pressure, and I used a good cam break-in lube on assembly. I'm just going to fortify things with ZDDP and see if that will help.

So; - progress...feels good to be making some.