Author Topic: Ride Height  (Read 21133 times)

Bob G ✝︎

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2005, 18:11:17 »
While on this subject. I am getting ready for round two of spring pad adjustment for the John Olson progressive rate springs that are in my 280SL. I would be nice to hear from some of the others who also purchase these springs and compare notes.
I hesitated to leave the car so my springs were installed in two installments. I took out 18 MM spring pads rear and repalced them with 24MM pads right height is about were it was a 25 1/4 to 26 inches from ground to top of wheel arch with a little positive that needs to be adjusted out . I read there is an ajustment for this at the rear. The front I took out 32.5 and replaced with 25MM the front sits at 24 inches from top fender lip to ground too low should be 25 1/4 to 26 inches. I am running 185 TR14 michelins tires.
I would appreciate any comments from other owners with the progressive rate springs from John olson. As I would like to get this problem behine me.
Thank You
Bob Geco

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2005, 18:20:04 »
I only have the earlier infos . My 043 specific also shows the 5/10.
 .. but , that is not real important ..
 Do you have info for camber w/heavy springs?  ..Note there is no camber change between curb/test loads.
 I personally think Bilsteins all around/ heavier springs in the rear with a zero camber and a matching front heigth w/early sway bar diameter would be fine.
 I remember when these were new , there were some articles out where drivers claimed they would get the best perfomance from 042's by installing Konis in the back only and cranking them up a bit...

JimVillers

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2005, 19:52:34 »
Bob ... do your measurements from the center of the hubcap to the bottom of the fender (excludes all tire variables).

Vince/Arthur .... I finally have a data book ...... I found that the 113 had a harder spring option; front 113 321 05 04 which was 300 lb/in and rear 113 324 02 04 which was 380 lb/in.  The height for the harder springs was lowered by 4 mm, min 2.9 inches to max 3.5 inches.  


Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2005, 22:31:44 »
Yes , but only for curb load. , Note that the specs for test load are the same , regardless of spring.  That 84mm is curb load w/standard shocks. The heavy version springs only came with the standard shocks [ non-gas]..That would account for the curb 4mm difference.
So, if one is using test load , the specs are the same .
That is why I mentioned I would prefer the rear heavy version spring
coupled with the Bilstein shocks.
...And I think that was about what was accomplished when guys went w/rear cranked Konis ..
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 23:14:50 by A Dalton »

JimVillers

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2005, 05:40:22 »
Arthur ... You are correct about the specification on "loaded height", I am still working on sorting out the "correct" look and stance of the car.  I just need to work faster (I have been side tracked working on my daughter's Honda).

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

Vince Canepa

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2005, 10:10:58 »
The camber data I have shows only data for  the rear with "harder" springs, and it is the same as the standard springs.

I did see one tidbit that may be useful: A change of 2.5mm in the height of the spring pad results in a change of approx. 5mm in the delta of the control arm pivot points (dimension "a").

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2005, 22:12:21 »
They use the 2.5 mm /5mm "a" measure relation b/c the mounts come in 2.5 mm increments.

 But if one is using spacer rings, the relation is simply 1/2.

 Here are all

 Front  2.5 results in change of 5mm 'a"
 Rear   6mm results in  change of 30' camber
        3mm comp spring mount results in camber change of 30'
        1 notch rotation of spring plate results in camber change of 10'

Vince Canepa

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2005, 09:51:22 »
Since Arthur mentioned the compensating spring mounts I thought I'd mention an anomaly I have run into ordering new ones for my project.  M-B lists the two pads available by total height rather than by the thickness of the "flange".  For example, they list the 110 329 01 85, 6mm pads as having a thickness of 21mm!  Oddly, they are listing by the total height, even though part of the pad is down inside the spring and has no affect whatsoever on the ride height or camber.  The 110 329 00 85, 3mm pads are listed as 18mm.  Maybe this info will help someone avoid confusion when ordering theses parts.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

JimVillers

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2005, 15:20:39 »
Arthur ... I looked in the tech section and searched the archives for the PVC camber tool to set the rear ride height but could not find it.  Could it be over on mercedesshop?

I did some measuring this afternoon to calibrate my hubcap to fender measure on the front:
 
(control arm delta => fender measure)  
3 inches => 14 1/8 inches
3 1/4 inches => 14 3/8 inches
3 1/2 inches => 14 5/8 inches

It would be good if these measurements were verified by someone else on another car.

The 3 inch control arm delta looks about right for my car (unless I change the rear).

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2005, 17:15:07 »
J
 The tool is just a "C" jig that is made from some 1/2 pvc . 3 pieces and two elbows.... 2/4" pieces and 1/14" piece. [ $2/3]

 Many use a level/board across the tire sidewall, but that is not accurate and the buldge of the tire , runout.etc , just doesn't make it .

  so , if you make a stand-off, square 'C' fixture w/pvc ,  only the ends of the pvc will make contact with the rim of the wheel.This get the plumb out away from the car and tire where you can read it.
 The long piece connects to the two shorts w/90 elbows and the overall tool length should be the same measure as the rim edge of the wheels the tool is to be used on. [ for 113, that is 14"]
 Now. you drill a hole through the top pvc 4' pipe at 3" from the end that rest on rim. Then mark the bottom 4" piece at exactly 3" from that ones end. The top hole goes through the side of pvc c/l and the mark on the bottom one is on the side. Put a fishing line [mono] through the hole and hang a plumb bob on the line a couple of inches below the bottom piece, so the line pendulums across the lower marker.
 The tool can be checked by holding it in your fist by the long pvc piece against any true perpendicular surface to make sure you plumb settles at exactly where your lower marker line is.  [ I use a fine marker for this indexing mark]  Once you have that established , you simply mark off a couple more index marks  +/- from your known plumb mark [ two are enough] at exactly .2618" on each side of the original.. This is the inch measure for the tangent angle of 1 degree at 14" [ which is why you want the plumb line exactly 14' from the hanging hole to the index marker .. which is one of the reasons for the hole coming out the side of the pvc, etc]
 I you want the tool for other measures , you have to find the tangent angle from a trig chart for different wheel rim size.
 That's it ..  grab the tool in your hand  by the long pvc section , hold the two ends up against the rim edge , vertically, with just enough room for the Bob to swing freely past the index marks , and when it settles, read where it is in reference to the index markers on the botton leg of the tool. At zero camber , it will register plumb.  At one index mark away from car , it will be 1 degree + camber. Toward the car , neg camber , etc...
 The trick is to make sure the car itself is level from r/l before taking camber readings , as the tool plumb is in relation to level, as any plumb is...

 As you can see , with a 1 degree index spacing increments of over 1/4 " , a 30' calibration is easily recognised..the tool is as accurate as your construction tolerences are.  
Don't forget the wheel bearings adjust before testing camber specs.
 Clear as mud ??
My scanner has crapped , so no pics.

norton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2005, 17:43:46 »
Here's a link to the old thread for the $5 camber tool http://sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=2661,tool

Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2005, 18:25:27 »
Mike

 That is it ..I see I doubled up the uprights for strength/stability.
 I could not find it using the aearch..
 How did you find it ??
Tnx

JimVillers

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2005, 18:34:20 »
Thanks Arthur ... I have the concept and will build one and play with it a little.

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

norton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2005, 20:17:43 »
I remembered seeing it before and just searched for "camber tool"

Mike Halleck
Chesterfield Mi
71 280SL
68 250SL (parts car)
94 E320 Coupe

JimVillers

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2005, 15:40:31 »
Arthur .... I built a version of your camber tool today.  Rather than PVC, I used left over copper fittings and pipe and soldered them together.  After taking the measurements, looking up the sine to four decimal points in my 1962 edition of the CRC Tables (which haven't been used since calculators replaced slide rules), zeroing the tool on a "known" vertical (back door) and scribing degree marks with a digital caliper.  The plum is an old bolt suspended by monofilament fishing line.  Rather than a "C" frame, I built an "E" so that I could lengthen the plum line for "more accuracy".  With that said, my measurements were:

Drivers rear:  3/4 degree, 13.625 inches (hubcap star to bottom of fender)
Passenger rear: 1 degree, 13.5 inches (hubcap star to bottom of fender)

Since the specification is 1.75 degrees +-0.5 degrees, the rear of my car is also too low.

I was surprised that the rear camber specifications are the same for the left and right wheels since the pivot is not in the center.  I guess that is why they offer a half-degree variation.

Anyone else measure their rear camber and height?


Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2005, 16:09:38 »
<<I was surprised that the rear camber specifications are the same for the left and right wheels since the pivot is not in the center. I guess that is why they offer a half-degree variation.
>>>

 Yes , .. That was a big problem with the  earlier 121 chassis , as the step bearings and spring mount were equal distant from chassis C/L , but if you look closely at the 113 chassis geometry layout , you will see that they shifted the spring perches over to the right of C/L to help alleveiate the unequal right hand camber problem of the earlier swings....

JimVillers

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2005, 17:46:10 »
Arthur .... I learn something every day.  The driver's perch is 424mm  from the centerline while the passanger perch is 453mm for the centerline.  An offset of about 15mm.  The German elves must have stayed up late to figure that out.

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, MGB 5-Speed, MGB GT V8 RHD (real MG), 2016 SLK

A Dalton

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Re: Ride Height
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2005, 18:23:39 »
Yes ,
 438.5mm  is mean, but they did not have that much room left on the chassis, but the right side camber is still different under load b/c the pivot is lower than the actual axle lateralC/L, so that makes up most of the difference.
 The older swing had equal distance from chassis C/L on the spring perch/step bearing mounts , so the L/R springs were different , depending on model. Terrible set-up.

 OK , Alex ..let's see .....I think  I'll try "113 Chassis Geometry" for $600...:)