What is #1 German Auto Brand Worldwide??

[LFrank]

An article in today's Wall Street Journal talks about how Audi is trying to upgrade its image in the United States, seeing as how it is considered worldwide to be among the most premier auto manufacturers.
(Not to offend, but the brand is an "also-ran" here; unfavorable/unsubtantiated press in the '80 didn't help...)

I'd be interested to hear from the group's international quotient: is that true? And if so are Mercedes and Audi equal, or is one held to be better than the other? (We do all agree that Merz is the top Teuton stateside, he said, preaching to the choir...)

(I was stunned to spend time in Athens years ago and see that all of the "Taksi" cabs were bearing the three-ponted star; then again, the cops drove Saabs in Aspen.)

Volkwagen Phaeton, anyone?

LFrank
Washington DC
65 230 sl - auto
DB334/Hellblau

[enochbell]

The image Audi earned in the 80's and early 90's for being poor-performing, unreliable rust-buckets is not unsubstatiated.  VW recovered from the dismal image they earned with their products by moving smartly on to a new platform.  Audi has begun to do the same, but in both cases the bad memories are still stronger than quality of new products.  They have both also, IMHO, suffered from lack of differentiation between BMW (always better performance, if not equal reliability or lack thereof) and Mercedes (perceived? better quality and luxury).  Stay in the middle of the road and you are likely to be passed or run over.

My $.02

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[J. Huber]

Greg's mention of BMW got me thinking. BMW hardly ever get any mention here -- and as I look at most of the site's "other" cars, it is rare to see a Bimmer. Wonder why? is it kind of like the MAC/PC thing? Oil/Water? Or just plain loyalty to Stuttgart.

PS For years my Pagoda shared its home with a 325i and then 525i. I personally thought they were sporty, comfortable, and reliable. And I adore the classic lines of the 2002. Could it be the Huber (Bavarian) in me? Happy Oktoberfest!



James
63 230SL

[Bob G ✝︎]

Audi has come away from its service problems in the 1970s with changing inboard brakes on a 100LS to a respected brand name of German Luxury performance automobiles. It seems that their appeal is the draw of free service for the four years of ownership a clad iron excuse to not choosing   a Benz. BMW is the other  from Bravaria is less tutonic and racer luxury . It used to be in the seventys that a Benz was build like a rock and hard to break, but if you wanted the Pony car in Germany. Both cars were built well the Benz more conservitive with it overly big steering wheel , the BMW more of a break with Stuttgards tranditional following if it isn't broke don't fix it . BMW founded it nitch in the performance . That is were Audi is now it is the new brother growen up with an hunger to knot both MErcedes-Benz & BMW aside as the new German Super car.
Its hard to knock down either of theses cars but one must wonder which one will last the longest after the warrenty is long gone away.
Bob Geco

[gwuisman]

Here in Holland the Audi is regarded as a car for sporty people. The bad performance in the past is forgotten. Now Audi is synonym with a high standard quality. The little Audis are the favourites of young people with more than an average income. They distinguish themselves from the ‘ordinary’ VW Golf and Peugeot 306 youngsters.  MB suffers at the time from technical problems and because of that a less reliable image. Beside that big MB cars are associated with people who don’t earn their money in an honest way. That is why not that much are owned by private people. BMW is the best performing branch at the moment. It does not suffer from the recession; on the contrary the factory is the only German auto producer which is expanding. People like the BMW cars because of the design, reliability, smooth driving and engine performance, especially the 6 cylinders.
I myself like the BMW more than the (modern) MB. The MB drives stiff and does not sit that comfortable. But that is a personal taste. My ranking: 1. BMW 2. Audi  3. MB

Gerard Wuisman
MB 1970 280sl
BMW 520i Touring (12 years old)
BMW 315 (24 years old)

[Douglas]

There was some kind of gala being held in the Forbes Building last night here in Manhattan that I noticed on my way home. Parked conspicuously outside on the sidewalk on a red carpet was an Audi A8L complete with evening gown-clad model and bright lighting. I'm guessing whatever that PR event was had something to do with the article in today's WSJ. Audi is trying very, very hard to climb up to the next level and, to some degree, they've made progress. Certainly you have to give them credit for styling that has kept them distinctive.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[LFrank]

<<Beside that big MB cars are associated with people who don’t earn their money in an honest way.>> Fascinating stuff; put 'em in an old fintail to make 'em look REALLY sinister!

LFrank
Washington DC
65 230 sl - auto
DB334/Hellblau

[Cees Klumper]

I will second Gerard's comments about Audi. It's from the same stables as VW. VW is upmarket from Opel (let's not forget this German car maker / GM-subsidiary which is huge in Europe in terms of sales numbers) but then Audi is upmarket from VW.
Then you have a long time nothing, and THEN you have the big rivalry between DC and BMW.
I have owned Audi, BMW, Opel and Mercedes. The Audi I had (a model 80, new in 1992) was one of the most enjoyable cars I have owned. The BMW was a 1987 316i model that I bought for next to nothing a few years ago and it took me everywhere in great comfort. Then early this year I had to replace my C180. I looked long and hard at contemporary convertibles from BMW, Mercedes, Audi and ... Volvo. The Audi I found to be overpriced and small. The Mercedes was bulky, my wife did not like it and, as Gerard points out, it is considered to be a bit ostentatious over here. I found the BMW small and overpriced. In the end the Volvo won hands down for me.

Anyway to come back to Audi: good image, yuppie car, quality, performance, not unreasonable prices but what's with the dual exhausts on most models and that horrendously shaped grille ...

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[JamesL]

UK - a close third to Munich and Stuttgart, in my view

Good build, good quality and appealing (successfully) to the person who does not want to drive a Beemer or Merc but wants the "hard" facts of those two brands - quality, luxury, reliability, residual values and the like, but "understated". In the UK, they have been on a serious up since the mid-80s and the Quattro.

I had an Audi 80 for a while and it "did exactly what it said on the tin". Perfectly good, if uninspiring car.

The early versions of the A8 (I read somewhere) were all built at a huge loss as the VAG boss wanted a car, at any expense, to compete with the S class and 7 series. Totally over engineered.

The downside is (for many, myself included) the difficulty really telling the Audi A3 from the Golf, from the SEAT, from the Skoda. Similarly with the A4/Passatt. IMO, there's too many variants on the same theme which means that you look at an Audi and think "baby beemer" and not realising that the car is probably the equivalent of the M3.

[Ben]

In Ireland, because of our crazy tax sytems, the Mercedes Cars are alsways a lot more expensive than their rivals and this means that you would not normally compare an A4 with a 3 series or C-Class. You could buy an A6 for the same price as a C-Class.

Anyone who would contemplate buying an E-Class would never consider an A6.

New Mercedes cars sell well over here because pople have money and want others to know it !

There are few A8 Audi's, then new 7 sells MUCH better than the old sqaure model which depreciates like lead here, but the S-Class is still King of the Hill by a long margin !

In general folk dont like the current 5 series, its predecessor sold very well though. The current E-Class sells extremely well, its their best selling model by a long margin.

The 3 Series is BMW's best seller, but again the 3 Series Coupe is not seen as a rival to a CLK Merc. Folk buy the 3 Series Coupes if they are looking for high performance as they can get more BHP for their money !

The Audi were aways seen as "the poor mans Merc" but they were considered very conservative but durable. UNTIL RECENTLY !

There have been a lot of quality issues with current A4's & A6's. Electrical failures, diesel pump issues, and parts literally falling off. My colleague is a die hard Audi fan, he's had a VW Passat and 5 A4's.................his glovebox has fallen off 3 times ! The white symbols have worn off the switches and his brakes failed whilst in the workshop !

All that together with very high servicing costs mean he has now just bought a BMW !

Mercedes main dealer servicing is cheaper than for VW,Audi or BMW !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Benz Dr.]

Audi cars in the 70's were junk. I had a '74 100LS - the worse I've ever owned. It was a dangerous car that would understeer straight off the road in the last direction you were moving before you lost control. Trees, telephone poles, ditches, fields, other cars and deep rivers - it wasn't fussy.

Now it's MB turn. The newer cars have so many problems it's a wonder they sell at all. The list of complaints such as failed wiring to service problems are on every list and in the Star for everyone to see. The link up with Chrysler was a mistake that is slowly improving but the cost came in the result of a number of badly built cars. This is no secret......

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061

[Tom Colitt]

I'm almost afraid to pipe in  :twisted:   (devil's advocate)
..., but here in L.A. there are much more BMWs than Mercedes on the road. Is Mercedes really still leading in the US?

Tom

Tom Colitt

[Raymond]

I had the opportunity to join our MBCA tour of the MB processing facility here in Jacksonville, Florida last week.  It's an impressive facility.  All of the MBs imported for the Southeast US, East Texas to Virginia to Florida, come in through JAX. (There were 7 McLarens in the line $460K each. Wow!),

MB only uses three ports. Here in JAX, they are responsible for a third of the country and only process 3,500 to 5,000 cars a month.  They said they sell 1100 every month to South Florida.  By contrast here the Toyota port facility handles over 30,000 per month.  With numbers that small, BMW has to be killing MB in unit numbers.

Regarding quality.  The factory rep made it clear that they heard the complaints of new MB owners loud and clear.  He didn't admit that that is why the last CEO "resigned".  He did say that in the last two years, MB customer satisfaction ratings had risen from the twentys to #2.  That they had changed their field training and feedback to the engineers in Germany.  In fact, we were given a sneak peek at a 2007 S class diesel in the skunk works room that they were doing field training on.  I left feeling that MB had actually realized what junk they were building and wanted to atone.  However, every single car (except the McLarens)looked like an orange peel paint job.  Why do the Japanese do so much better paint?  I don't think there is a one of us on this forum that would have accepted a job from a paint shop like I saw on all these new cars.

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[enochbell]

Raymond,

Thanks for the thoughtful addition, I am also struck by the lousy paint finish on the new Benz's. My wife has a new wagon that looks great in sunlight but in the flourescent (?sp) light of our garage it is dramatically lower in finish quality than even our '98 E series.  But that is not what really bugs me.

As some may note from my posts, I love the old and beautiful technology that graces the "classic" (apologies to those who prefer another term) Benz's.  The fuel injection pump is a prime example.  Newer technology eeks out a few more mpg and driveability when it works as designed, but what happens when it fails?  I would not consider buying an older "new" model:  they are simply not repairable, just replaceable at a probibitive price point.  What will happen to a 20-year old S600?  Certainly not the fate/fame of the 300sl.  

My hope is that I believe or hope that we might...just maybe...expect a refocus on quality vs. pure technology.  Wouldn't it be nice to see an E350 with as much invested in the quality of it's parts and less invested in active suspension, navigation, heated this-and-that, rain sensors and all that?  I dream.

When my wife's new E goes out of warranty, it will no longer belong to my family.  But I guarantee I will still own my '64.

Best,

g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

[pierre]

I have owned a 1997 Audi 2.5 TDI avant for 5 years now, and driven more than 120 000 kms with it. It has 235000 km and is in very good condition and very reliable. High performance, room, comfort and only 7.5 liters gas oil / 100 kms. It's really a good car!
The reason why people here in the Pyrenes mountains (with ice and snow in winter) prefer Audi is that they're all front wheel drive or quattro.They are climbing without problems.
 And if you don't want a SUV, Audi has mostly the interesting offer. DB 4 matic were always sold only combined with rather big gasoline engines (280 E, 320 E, 430 E).
Finally there is nowadays a diesel E320 CDI with the 4 matic.
BMW understood faster by offering again the X models,(for ex. 330 XD) like in the 80ies(325 Xi).
BMW, Audi, Mercedes:Equal in the quality (depending on models).
 Mercedes-drivers are mostly older people here in France. BMWdrivers are often driving a little too fast...