Author Topic: 250SL's Differences  (Read 18113 times)

Longtooth

  • Guest
Re: 250SL's Differences
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2006, 04:09:10 »
Vince... I can only say that before you can comment on whether or what the author describes, and what documents he shows or quotes from the MB executives and minutes of executive meetings, and engineering charts, you need to

1. Learn to read German (if you don't already), and

2. Get the book or borrow a copy and read it.

I think you're trying to say you don't believe the author's sources are valid or verifiable.  I believe they are.  That's the only difference in what I perceive to be your disagreement with what I've posted on this topic.

BTW, the author gives exclusive and total credit for the entire SL series (beginning with the 190SL's conception and execution) to an American... and the influence he had with the Executives and Board of directors at MB to design and build it... for the American Export market!!!!!  Had this American not gone to MB and addressed the Board (at the Board's request), the entire MB "sports touring" SL's would never have existed.... according to the author.  That's not to say however, that the American market was using the cars like the Europeans were... and the sports car market competition was determining that HP was king... which was the reason for MB's emphasis on HP improvements since the perception --- emphasis is perception ---- of the American market buyers as well as Europe's was that the higher the HP the better the car, all other things equal... what MB and the American Import market knew however, was that the American's proof of performance was "off the line acceleration"... while the German's was high top speed and high speed acceleration.  

And, I haven't read anything in the book, nor reported anything that said the American export market didn't matter to MB... and in fact the American market was a major reason for the decision to replace the 230SL with the 250SL, despite the marginal improvement in HP, but with a 10% improvement to torque... which improved the 'performance' in low speed application as in "0-60" times, etc... the MB Export Sales Chief argued vehemently that there could be no delay with replacement of the 230SL... with the 250SL, as the 250SE was already on the market nearly a year earlier than the 250SLs introduction, and he, and the BOD feared the loss of sales in the growing US market if the rumor's persisted that the 230SL was being replaced with the 250SL.

So it's not my understanding from the author that the US market 'didn't matter'... it sure appears to have mattered to the MB executives that ran the business... and the engineering leads that directed the engine development. It was the MB board that invited the American to address the Board with what would sell in the US market... before there was even a clue within MB (not even a concept drawing or sketch... not even a set of performance criteria or outline... not even a concept) as to what came to be the 190SL and it's follow-ons... 230SL, thru the SL's of today.!    I think your acquantances from "within MB" were not those that had to do with decision making since, as you said, "...the Germans would act like the US market didn't matter and that US drivers didn't understand the cars, yet behind the scenes they were furiously working to address US complaints (as in the development of the V-8s that took place all through the 60s)."  So those acquantances of yours were ill informed with respect to their leadership's perceptions of what was important... apparently. "Behind the scenes" is how all company's work in a competive market place isn't it?  At least that's been my experience in development... we sure never leaked or marketed anything before it was ready to go into full production in my business... even before we had any competion (since it would halt or vastly diminish current sales)... and in the current highly competitive market it's even far more critical to make sure our development activities remain "behind the scenes".

Your argument isn't with me... at least I don't think it is... it's with Engelen and his documented sources from within MB.  

Like I said... I can only suggest you read the book before you take exception to it's content. What you'll find is that the decisions made were business decisions... based on market competition and market perceptions,  and those decisions dictated the technical ones related to chassis, rear suspension, and engines, and timing (i.e. time to market).  MB broke the sports car concept mold with the sports "tourer" SL series... a blend of a sports car and a GT... comfortable accomodations & drivability with sports car appeal.  The engine problems I've described limited MB's options in market timing and what they could offer.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

Benz Dr.

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7220
  • Benz Dr.
Re: 250SL's Differences
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2006, 14:39:26 »
Unbelievable....... like, don't you have a day job or something? ( lol ) Maybe the book has valid points but I'm not about to go and buy one nor do I care much about it's contents. I fix the real world problems of age and wear... the causes of which are many. I doubt the author of this book ever got his hands dirty or knows one end of a wrench from the other.
 
I've seen plenty of cylinder wear but never cracks between cylinders. MB stated way back then that normal cylinder wear was roughly .001'' per 10,000 miles of driving. Care and driving conditions can greatly affect this but I can't understand why no one could lose the meaning of carb versus injected engine wear.
 A carbed engine isn't as highly stressed as the fuel injected variant but there's more to it than that. The injection pump will deliver the same amount of fuel regardless of how worn the engine might be or how high the compression is. In other words, the pump is set at or near optimum compression numbers. Low compression will mean poor cumbustion leading to fuel dilution and increased wear. This isn't rocket science......

Even modern engines in new cars fail, although not that often. A small or moderate failure rate 40 years ago is of no real consequence today. To say that the 250SE/SL engine is a piece of junk is as silly as the idea that 3 extra bearings somehow produced some kind of huge drag or friction within the engine. This was and is considered to be a stronger system ( 7 main bearings ) and if they didn't get the design right it takes nothing away from the real improvement.

The fact that late model engines ( 280SL and /A )run hot, IS born out by the info you gleaned. I already said why they run hot and I hold no sort of degree regarding design or metalurgy. They run hot because of the design and size of the cylinders compared to the size of the block which is after all, a modifed 220SE.

Please try and hold back any response to maybe 6 or 7 pages. I have a hard time staying awake these days....

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC