2006 R&M Auction Highlights

[Douglas]

Another fine job by Brian Peters recounting a few highlights from the recent R&M auction in Scottsdale:

http://motoringinvestments.com/AZ06.htm

Douglas Kim
New York

[TR]

Great photos.  Thanks, Douglas, for posting that link.

On Brian's home page for Mercedes I see the first car shown, a lovely blue '70 280SL, is listed for $105K: http://motoringinvestments.com/mbz.htm


Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[AGT]

Agree.

The  blue car is stunning but has gone up from $99,500. Is that a rise in market prices or the carrying cost through 2005? Either way I have promised my bank manager, therapist, wife and children that I am going to stop checking that car every day.

The UK sales brochurefor the 280SL from 1969 quotes:

 "LASTING VALUE. A car is lasting in value if, after being used for several years, it commannds a high resale price, i.e. if there is a good market for this type of used car. Mercedes-Benz cars are lasting in value."

Now, the guy who dreamt that up in the late 60s never thought that almost 40 years later a car selling for $8,000 or so in 1970 would have a serious sticker price in 2006 of $105,000.

Sadly, this advertising puff from 1969 may apply to my Pagoda but certainly does not apply to my RUSTING 2002 CL500.

Enjoy the weekend.

Regards
Andrew

[n/a]

The cars at auction seem to sell at a higher price than cars sold elsewhere of similar condition.  Is that meant that auction is the best way to sell your car?

Louis 70 280sl Red Auto

[rwmastel]

Those auction selling prices may or may not include auction fees.  I'm not sure.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[TR]

Andrew -- Sorry to read about your '02 CL500 rusting.  That's a very nice car, and it's gotta hurt.

Re the exquisite blue '70 280SL on Brian’s website, just for fun I put your numbers through my financial calculator.  If I did it correctly, then an increase from $8,000 in 1970 to $105,000 in 2006 equates to a compounded annual growth rate of 7.41%.  Now if we used a more typical current price, of say $30K, then that comes out to a CAGR of 3.74%.  But of course these numbers ignore all of the cumulative on-going expenses over those intervening 36 years.  Still, little exercises such as this are enough for me to self-justify keeping my '71 280SL.

I know quite a few folks don’t seem to appreciate this way of thinking; perhaps it’s just for us analytical types, eh?

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[Jonny B]

Like all these things, you need to read the fine print to understand if the buyers/sellers fee is tacked on to the quoted price. Most times I believe it is, Ketih Martin's SPorts Car Market does a good job in presenting that.

I think auction prices can be inflated depending on the auction and other cars in the sale. Barrett Jackson looks to be one of the more "star" studded ones. But the cars go through a screening process before making it to the sale.But even there, bargains can be had, but those are the ones you do not see on SPEED coverage.

Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto

[Vince Canepa]

OT, but I am curious where rust is showing up on a 2002 CL.  The body is a hybrid of steel, aluminum and magnesium. Front fenders and trunk lid are composite. I think the roof is aluminum.  The doors are magnesium and aluminum if I am not mistaken.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[RBurg]

TR Check with dealer and zone rep on the rust issue - many S class  had bad prime and were rusting (I  know of one S55, 2002) which had all moulding removed and repaired and painted on all for side.
In  reto speck I have a 97 E420 which has been just started to be driven in the winter of 2003 to present and it is rusting on 3 corners, rr just after the rear wheel arch and in the fron just front of the wheel arch and above the bumber trim.

Good luck with the MB zone rep!

Ron - Minnesota
71 280SL Tobacco "O GIGI"
97 E420 Silver Mist

[TR]

Hi Ron -- Thanks for the concern, but no rust here.  I was offering my condolences to Andrew based on the rust problems he described with his CK500.  I'm also sorry to read about your E420.  I guess we are lucky in this area, as rust just isn't much of an issue here...thank goodness.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[mal]

Hello Douglas,
Thank  you for posting this link. It put a big smile on my face!
The 220se Convertible at 203,500$ !! I just bought a 1958 220s convertible and it is on its way to Lebanon from the US.
This Car will get a lot of TLC from me.
regards


Malek Mrowa - Beirut, Lebanon.
280SL 71-  Light Blue -/Blue
190SL 61 -  Ivory/Red
250SE 66 Convertible -Silver / Red

[AGT]

Thanks for the sympathy on the rust problem. Apologies that it is off topic - although rust is never far from the agenda for our precious 113s. It must make a change to read of other battles against the tin worm.

Rust is a major issue for MB in Europe (and elsewhere?). The first serious problems were with the 1996 to 2002 W210 E-class. In the UK MB has been repairing these cars free of charge provided they have a full authorised MB dealer history. I had a 1999 E-class estate which had the tin worm everywhere. As I had bought this car in Dusseldorf, Germany and imported it to the UK, MB in the UK disowned the car even although the dealership in Dusseldorf was owned by MB. Ron, if your 1997 E420 is rusting this is a paint defect. MB should repair this free of charge. Check out dozens of posts on this topic on the owners' forums.

Vince, you are quite correct regarding all the composites used on the bodywork of the W215 CL class. Mine is rusting at the bottom of the driver's door and at both rear wheel arches. The worst affected areas can be the C pillar and I am told this is because the chemists messed up and the less reactive wing (fender) material conducts to the more reactive roof material. Extraordinary in MB's flagship motor car.

And to get back to the topic - my money would have been better spent on Brian Peters' gorgeous blue 1970 280SL.

Incidentally, and also off topic, I agree with Brian's comment in his report that the 107 SL is about to become sought after. A UK specialist has just sold an unregistered 1989 300SL for £40,000 (US$65,000). This is a car which you can only buy in Euro spec! Get one in the garage now.

Regards
Andrew

[France]

But Tom, you need to factor in the psychic income from just owning and looking at one of these beauties for all those years!  Maybe we need a Compounded Annual Pleasure Growth Rate (CAPGR).

If I performed an analysis that takes into account accrued pleasure for all my cars, they would all beat most investments (at least the legal ones).

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
Sarasota FL; Alsace France

[Vince Canepa]

OK - Now I'm a bit perplexed.  Rust - in the sense most of us understand it, is ferrous oxide.  To have rust as defined, the door would have to be ferrous.  However, please read the following  excerpt from the factory Press Kit for the W211 CL Class:

"Body in intelligent hybrid construction using various materials

The low fuel consumption of the new CL is also partly due to the technology of its body, which is based on the selective use of different lightweight materials. Aluminum, magnesium, plastic and steel are the main components of an innovative hybrid body construction system that makes the CL a technological standard-bearer in this field as well. For example, the hood, door paneling, rear fenders, roof and other parts are made of aluminum, the front fenders and trunk lid of high-quality plastic and the insides of the doors of magnesium."

Neither the door interiors, door exteriors or the rear "wings" are ferrous.  In fact, it appears that the only steel in the chassis is in places where it cannot be seen.  Of course, corrosion can occur in aluminum, the material in question here, but it isn't rust as we normally define it.  Disimilar metals will often cause "corrosion" effects and sometimes, in the exotic end of the market where the CL, Ferraris, etc. reside, unexpected problems can arise.  I am speculating the the "rust" issue here is from the disimilar materials used and not from the paint, per se.  Any connection to problems with the W210 problems is remote at best.

As far as buying a W113 at a very inflated price over a CL500, I don't know.  If the only intended purpose for the W113 is to potter about and maybe show the car, perhaps.  But if you need to travel any distance at speed, not in a million years, in my opinion.  I have 35 years experiance with my W113 and frankly, the chassis dynamics and noise level are reallly starting to show their age.  Keep the CL, see what M-B is doing to address the issue, have the coating system fixed.  It is a better car in every respect.  To further my point, my wife and I had to cover almost 2,000 miles in 4 days last month.  Our choice of vehicles was our 250SL or our E430.  We took the E430.  After two consecutive 14 hour stints we got out of the car completely relaxed, "ready for more".  We've done 12 hours in the SL several times, and while it is very comfortable for it's day, we ceratinly weren't "ready for more".


Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[AGT]

Vince

All fair points.

I am using the term "rust" without precision. Henceforth, my CL has "corrosion" and my Pagoda has "ferrous oxide".

Corrosion issues aside, the CL is a wonderful and elegant car. It would also be my pick to cross a Continent. However, right now it is not making me smile and at £xxxxx that's a waste of my hard earned cash.

Regards
Andrew

[Vince Canepa]

One last thought on the possible sources for corrosion issues on the CL.  Corrosion can occur when a part of the car becomes the anode in a cell.  I had a 250/8 many years ago that would develop a leak at the solder joints of the radiator tanks every three months.  Many radiator shops worked on it and I even fittted a new, factory radiator, all to no avail.  Being an engineer, one day I was examining the mounting of the radiator and realized that the radiator was entirely isolated from the chassis in rubber mounts.  The cure was to install a ground strap from the radiator shell to the chassis. The car had some issue, never found, that caused the solder in the radiator to become an anode.  The anode in a cell sacrifices itself and that is what the solder was doing.  That ground strap cured the problem.  How does that apply to the CL?   Electrical problems in a chassis such as the CL, with its sophisticated electrical/electronic systems might lead to corrosion problems.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[JamesL]

Andrew

The MB Owners Club UK has many threads on it's boards about rusting of new cars, and the wonderful service MBUK offers....

Shocking on a high end model though. My brother has the C-Coupe, it's a 2002 main dealer car (bought new) and they are fighting over bodywork corrosion and have been for a couple of years. Odd thing is, I have a 1995 C class and not a spot of corrosion visible anywhere (touch wood!).

Really sad to see and makes you wonder whether our standards have all gone up so much, theirs have slipped or a combo of the 2.

[TR]

Trice -- I like your idea for a Compounded Annual Pleasure Growth Rate (CAPGR) with the idea of supporting continued investment in our cars.  I wonder what the algorithm might be?

Perhaps one of our physician friends could quantify it??  (E.G., compounding pleasure relates to growth in personal well being as a function of enhanced psychic harmony, which in turn relates to better health, which results in longer/better life, which produces direct measurable annual economic benefit, etc., etc.).  I would anticipate a correlation coefficient of near 1.0 r-squared when it comes to long term quantifiable benefits to owners resulting from the Pagoda CAPGR factor.

BTW, the newly posted photo your car looks terrific.  Great color too.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[peterm]

quote:Originally posted by TR

Trice -- I like your idea for a Compounded Annual Pleasure Growth Rate (CAPGR) with the idea of supporting continued investment in our cars.  I wonder what the algorithm might be?

Perhaps one of our physician friends could quantify it??  (E.G., compounding pleasure relates to growth in personal well being as a function of enhanced psychic harmony, which in turn relates to better health, which results in longer/better life, which produces direct measurable annual economic benefit, etc., etc.).  I would anticipate a correlation coefficient of near 1.0 r-squared when it comes to long term quantifiable benefits to owners resulting from the Pagoda CAPGR factor.

BTW, the newly posted photo your car looks terrific.  Great color too.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[peterm]

sorry miss posted

There is medical data already available on this phenomena check the DSM III (classifies all psychiatic diseases).  One must also factor in the FERLCN  (fear of expensive repairs lurking in the car neurosis) which can negate CAPGR.

[Dick M]

Tom in Boise for sure has no symptoms of FERLCN (fear of expensive repairs lurking in the car Neurousis)

Looking forward to seeing the new engineered features in red Pagoda.




Dick M
1970 280SL