113 SL engine swap

[n/a]

hi gang!

This, I am sure, has been covered before, but I can't find definite answers.

Can these drive trains be implanted without MAJOR headaches into the 113 SL? I've read about the V6 implant.. but would like to consider these:

1) 3.5 v8 ( from the 280se 3.5)
2) 4.5 v8 ( from the 280se 5.4)
3) 5.6 v8 ( from the 560/sl/se-(c)(l)

Any leads?

[A Dalton]

<<without MAJOR headaches>>

 No..

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by A Dalton

<<without MAJOR headaches>>

 No..

how about some?!    

[Naj ✝︎]

Have a look at this

http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200441944718_V8_5002.JPG

Its a late all alloy V* from a 500.
Was told it weighs less than the 230sl straight 6 it replaced.
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

[TheEngineer]

The implant of a 3.5 litre engine is described in "The Star" Vintage reprint no 1.
The implant of a 6.3 engine from a Mercedes 600 is described in "Mercedes Classic" Jan. 2003 issue. Other implants are shown in the website of "Mechatronics".
However, BEWARE ! : There was a Pagoda for sale at eBay with a Ford engine at $18,000.00 and it received zero bids. Obviously, implants may destroy value. Also, handling may be affected. As it is, IMHO, the car is a little heavy up front. This does cause the rear end to break away. The car then spins like a top, with the center of rotation being the front wheels. There is no recovery. Don't ask me how I know.

1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops.    Ret. engr. 1967 230SL - Sold

[n/a]

Thanks guys!  I am buying a shell and plan to take my time (hint...) and build it from scratch...
I do have a rebuilt 4.5 engine and a 3.5 I am currently rebuilding  (from my 1970 3.5 coupe undergoing a euro 3.5 drivetrain implant).

For those of you who want to order the book:

http://www.toadhallbook.com/book.cfm

[TheEngineer]

When you install a 350 V8 motor, you should also install a rear axle with a lower ratio. The V8 has more torque:32 mkp at 4200RPM vs. 27mkp at 4700RPM for the 280SL/8 and that is for a vehicle 700 lbs lighter! If you put a 3.27 axle in, it should make a nice driving car with plenty of power without being unsafe. Vehicles become unsafe when the power available can make the driven wheels spin on wet or dry pavement. You loose directional control very quick.

1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops.    Ret. engr. 1967 230SL - Sold

[Malc]

My comment would be, based on stage rallying experience, is that you must be able to stop as fast as you can accelerate!

More power must be balanced with better brakes [:p]

If a V8 weighs less than the original engine you may want to consider changing the front springs so that the car does not sit too high at the front, plus relatively harder front springs will probably cause the car to either under or over steer in a pronounced manner Different rate shock absorbers?

Don't know if you are planning to use a manual or automatic gearbox, but remember that the gearbox must be able to handle the increased power and torque. If yours is a manual it can be quite tricky to get the correct clutch and engine back plate combination, however a good machine shop should be able to make a back plate for you.
If the V8 is out of an automatic car and your going manual, or vice versa you will have to source a flywheel too.

I would fit the fuel injection system fitted to the V8 as well, so get the ECU! the FI system was designed for the engine so use it.

Finally stick with MB parts as much as you can you will be surprised at how many parts are common across the years / will fit.
I am in the process of putting 1986 BMW M535 brakes (ABS), gearbox, engine cylinder head and fuel injection and other bits and pieces in my 1974 BMW 3.0Csi which is in rebuild mode. As the 1980's 5 series floor pan is based on the 2500/2800/3.0 floor pan the parts will/ do fit.

Good luck
Malc Scotland

[n/a]

Anyone have information/experience swaping any other MB engines (other than the three mentioned by abdoul) into a 113sl?  Specifically, excluding an engine from a 280SE (2., is there any other known MB engine and/pr transmission combination that will EASILY go into a 113sl?

Thanks in advance.

[n/a]

Whoa!   I too have a 1974 3.0 csi project (yep!  I like trouble).  I was planning to put the 3.5 l engine and bits and pieces.  please share the factsheet on your implant process... I'd appreciate it.



Cheers

quote:Originally posted by Malc

My comment would be, based on stage rallying experience, is that you must be able to stop as fast as you can accelerate!

More power must be balanced with better brakes [:p]

If a V8 weighs less than the original engine you may want to consider changing the front springs so that the car does not sit too high at the front, plus relatively harder front springs will probably cause the car to either under or over steer in a pronounced manner Different rate shock absorbers?

Don't know if you are planning to use a manual or automatic gearbox, but remember that the gearbox must be able to handle the increased power and torque. If yours is a manual it can be quite tricky to get the correct clutch and engine back plate combination, however a good machine shop should be able to make a back plate for you.
If the V8 is out of an automatic car and your going manual, or vice versa you will have to source a flywheel too.

I would fit the fuel injection system fitted to the V8 as well, so get the ECU! the FI system was designed for the engine so use it.

Finally stick with MB parts as much as you can you will be surprised at how many parts are common across the years / will fit.
I am in the process of putting 1986 BMW M535 brakes (ABS), gearbox, engine cylinder head and fuel injection and other bits and pieces in my 1974 BMW 3.0Csi which is in rebuild mode. As the 1980's 5 series floor pan is based on the 2500/2800/3.0 floor pan the parts will/ do fit.

Good luck
Malc Scotland

[Malc]

Abdoul,
HA, [:p] Another mad person with a Csi

I am at the stripped shell and chasing the rust out point, slow, disheartening and labourious, I am having to make repair sections for the sills etc and my metalwork skills are reasonable but slow. I don't know where on the planet you are but Csi's in Scotland rust with avengence :?

Anyway the checks below apply to a 113 as well as the BMW.

1) Obtain as much dimensional data as possible, wheelbase, weights etc
on both the car you are restoring and the proposed donor car.
2) To make life easier the donor car should be the same manufacturer
3) Compare individual critical components. For example Brakes.....

The M535 brake dimensions and operation are the same, but the calipers are different, so the mounts are different on the struts, which are different to the Csi struts, plus there is ABS. However the overall strut dimensions are the same, so swap the struts  That's just the front!

THe pipe work will have to be changed and the ABS computer added, so that's extra wiring

As to the engine, a CSi engine is 3 litres, but a M535 is 3.5, however this was done by changing the stroke. The M535 head, with motronic ignition, will fit on the Csi block, but the inlet/exhaust manifolds are different, but I can mix and match. The FI is different so that's different wiring, fuel pump..............

The M535 LSD will go in, but I might have to use the rear sub frame as well to keep the geometry right.......

So you can see how insane it can get unless you approach the whole thing one step at a time.

Why am I doing this??? Well 2 new or reconditioned remote servos for a Csi are £280 + VAT each that's £658 in total just for 2 parts that need to be replaced.
The running 1986 M535, which is roadworthy, was £600. so I get parts, some fun driving, worthy upgrades, spares that are available still, and stuff I can sell on when I eventually "rob" it for parts

So if your doing an engine swap/upgrade of your 113 remember there is always consequences, it's not just a case of pull one engine out and bunging another in!

Have fun, and if you want any further info email me and I can let you know as the Csi saga continues!!
Cheers
Malc

[n/a]

Yes indeed!   Lucky for me the e9 body is not that bad.  The engine is dead.. I might end up bolting a regular 3.5 and not the M as I was told, it would make me loose more hair.. .  As for the 113 I am still at the early stage and am still hesitant about which route to take.  I am still weighing the headache factor... but fun headache it is.. isn't it?!  

Thanks for the tips!  By the way I am in Maryland USA. Cheers

quote:Originally posted by Malc

Abdoul,
HA, [:p] Another mad person with a Csi

I am at the stripped shell and chasing the rust out point, slow, disheartening and labourious, I am having to make repair sections for the sills etc and my metalwork skills are reasonable but slow. I don't know where on the planet you are but Csi's in Scotland rust with avengence :?

Anyway the checks below apply to a 113 as well as the BMW.

1) Obtain as much dimensional data as possible, wheelbase, weights etc
on both the car you are restoring and the proposed donor car.
2) To make life easier the donor car should be the same manufacturer
3) Compare individual critical components. For example Brakes.....

The M535 brake dimensions and operation are the same, but the calipers are different, so the mounts are different on the struts, which are different to the Csi struts, plus there is ABS. However the overall strut dimensions are the same, so swap the struts  That's just the front!

THe pipe work will have to be changed and the ABS computer added, so that's extra wiring

As to the engine, a CSi engine is 3 litres, but a M535 is 3.5, however this was done by changing the stroke. The M535 head, with motronic ignition, will fit on the Csi block, but the inlet/exhaust manifolds are different, but I can mix and match. The FI is different so that's different wiring, fuel pump..............

The M535 LSD will go in, but I might have to use the rear sub frame as well to keep the geometry right.......

So you can see how insane it can get unless you approach the whole thing one step at a time.

Why am I doing this??? Well 2 new or reconditioned remote servos for a Csi are £280 + VAT each that's £658 in total just for 2 parts that need to be replaced.
The running 1986 M535, which is roadworthy, was £600. so I get parts, some fun driving, worthy upgrades, spares that are available still, and stuff I can sell on when I eventually "rob" it for parts

So if your doing an engine swap/upgrade of your 113 remember there is always consequences, it's not just a case of pull one engine out and bunging another in!

Have fun, and if you want any further info email me and I can let you know as the Csi saga continues!!
Cheers
Malc

[Malc]

quote:Originally posted by abdoul
 The engine is dead.. I might end up bolting a regular 3.5 and not the M as I was told,  

Abdoul,
Any idea what's wrong with your engine?? BTW any BMW 6-cylinder engine will fit with abit of work. you may need to stick with the same engine capacity for insurance purposes etc.
Have fun

Malc
PS what's first the MB transplant or the BM[:p]

[n/a]

A 3.5 is the easiest conversion, and makes it a really neat car. MB should have put the 3.5 in this car from the beginning, instead of the 107 series.

tom in CA
2003 C320 Coupe