Wiper relay and headlight hi/low beam control

[A Dalton]

quote:Originally posted by naj

JeffC / A Dalton,


 

quote: That will work..

 

quote:30 is hot from the stalk even when the light switch power to 56 is off. This way the flash function will work when the headlight switch is off.

Hmmmm, slight problem:

When high beam is on, 56a (high beam feed) will also energise terminal 30 on the relay - hence no more switching   .

Jeff, I believe you already experienced this with your mock-up???

Fix:
1. Use stalk only for switching hi/lo beams and disconnect feed to hi beam for flashing (Also wire 56a in MB wiring diagrams)
or
2. Use a (zener ??) diode to the flashing hi beam feed to stop it feeding  terminal 30 on new relay.

If you agree, how does one decide which diode to use.

Can you tell I got an 'F' in Electronics 101?

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

 N
 Yes , Found that flaw right off .. glad you also noticed this 'lights ON-high beam coil feedback " problem..you only got the F cuz you skipped class
 That is why the VW [ and others ] have the extra switch contacts .. you can then isolate that part of the circuit , which enables the use of both from the same lever.
 J and I have done a few off-line comparisons and the end set-up is now trying to find a better quality relay w/extra contact sw.
 As a last resort , iso relay for lever B+ can be used , but rather have the one unit..
 Very do-able.. J. is checking relay source as we speak..

[jeffc280sl]

Hi Naj,

I guess you have seen our ADalton's comments.  I think he answered the mail with the second contact set available on the VW relay.

Another but related item. I understand that it is always best to use a diode as a drain for static electricity that builds up when deactivating the coil. I have used a 1N4000 series diode with the band side mounted towards the side of the coil with the positive power.  Available at Radio Shack in the States.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[jeffc280sl]

A Dalton and I have been working together on the stalk dimmer switch modification and we are finally complete.  The modifications are very simple and assume that you have already activated the flash to pass function on the turn signal stalk.  If you haven't wired the stalk connector for flash to pass search this site for instructions.  If you can't find them let me know and I'll back up these instructions to include that part also.

Here are the mods.

Buy a VW/Audi dimmer relay part# 111 941 583 or Meyle #100 941 0006.  It is a 5 pin relay and the pins are marked 56, 30, S, 56a and 56b.

1) Disconnected the 12V feed, flash wiring to the stalk, at fuse    #1.  Reterminate this wire on pin S.
2) Disconnected the 12V feed, flash wiring from the stalk, at fuse #9.  Reterminated this wire to ground.
3) Run a new circuit from fuse 1 with termination on pin 30.
4) Connected foot switch wire #56 (yellow/white) to pin 56.
5) Connected foot switch wire #56a (white) to pin 56a.
6) Connected foot switch wire #56b (yellow) to pin 56b.

And that's it.  The VW relay takes a neg input to trigger for the coil.  For this reason we are changing the stalk flash to pass switch from a plus to neg switch.  This is the reason for steps 1 and 2 above.  The balance of the steps simply require one to disconnect the old foot switch and reterminate its' three wires on the  new relay.

Once completed, when the head light switch is on, the lights will switch from hi to low and low to hi by momentarily pulling the turn signal stalk forward towards the driver.  The flash to pass function will operate as before when the head light switch is off.  

The relay costs around $30 and the rest of the cost is just wiring and connectors.  I mounted the relay above the old foot switch on the inside firewall.  I also used a 5 lug terminal block.  On one side I screwed down the 2 connectors from the stalk and 3 from the footswitch.  On the other side I terminated connectors for the relay with screw lugs on one end and push type connectors on the other for the relay.  If there are any questions I'll try to answer them


Good luck

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[JimVillers]

Jeff .... Take a look at this web site and do a parts search on your Audi #111 941 583. http://www.importeccatalog.com/ They cross it to their part #P2020-14781 which is a five prong relay for $15.  If you click on the relay image, it gives a larger image with the schematic of the relay on it.  Is this the same real that you and Arthur are working with?

Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor

[jeffc280sl]

Hi Jim,

What is the web site address?  At this point it will only take a second to tell if this one will work.



Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[A Dalton]

Jim
 Same type , that is VW replacement.

 Same schematic.. the trick is to use the 5 prong relay as it has a seperate comtact set so you still have pass/flash function when light sw is not being used

 pretty slick and another simple lighting upgrade .
i have actually seen that DNI-9127 for $11.. but it is a cheapo Import from Brasil..

 as I was telling Jeff, this Mod also leaves the orig foot sw open for a starter or Fuel pump kill ..if one wanted..

[jeffc280sl]

Just took the SL out for a spin with the new dimmer configuration.  It works great, I recommend it to everyone.  Not just the 4 & 5 speed manual owners.  It's not as inexpensive as enabling the flash to pass function (the old method) which is a good value but its close.  You can hide the relay anywhere and can't tell the mod is in place.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[gugel]

quote:Originally posted by jeffc280sl


Buy a VW/Audi dimmer relay part# 111 941 583 or Meyle #100 941 0006.  It is a 5 pin relay and the pins are marked 56, 30, S, 56a and 56b.

1) Disconnected the 12V feed, flash wiring to the stalk, at fuse    #1.  Reterminate this wire on pin S.
2) Disconnected the 12V feed, flash wiring from the stalk, at fuse #9.  Reterminated this wire to ground.
3) Run a new circuit from fuse 1 with termination on pin 30.
4) Connected foot switch wire #56 (yellow/white) to pin 56.
5) Connected foot switch wire #56a (white) to pin 56a.
6) Connected foot switch wire #56b (yellow) to pin 56b.

Jeff,

I'm finally getting around to thinking seriously about making this modification.  A couple of questions:

1) Shouldn't step number 2 be to disconnect the flash wiring from the stalk at fuse #10 (not #9) and reconnect it to ground?  Unless I'm misreading Achim's excellent wiring diagrams, the wire terminates at fuse #10 on all 113's.

2) Any tips on how to get at the wires to and from the fuse box?  As I remember, the back of the box isn't very accessible.

____________________________________________

As an aside, a modification of the above hookup occurs to me, which preserves most of the function of the floor dimmer switch as well, for drivers who might prefer that:

1) to 3) Same as above.
4) Leave foot switch wire #56 (yellow/white) connected to pin #56 on the foot switch
5) Disconnect foot switch wire 56a (white) from fuse 9 (as above) and reconnect it to pin 56 (NOT 56a) on the new relay.
6) Leave foot switch wire #56b (yellow) connected to fuses 11 and 12, and run a new wire from there to pin 56b on the new relay.
7) Run a new wire from pin 56a on the new relay to fuse #9

With this setup, pin 56 on the new relay gets current only when (the headlight switch is on and) the foot dimmer switch is set to high beam.  The new relay then functions to toggle between high and low beam whenever the stalk lever is momentarily pulled towards the driver.  But if the floor dimmer switch is set to low beam (and the headlights are on), then the low beam is always on.

The idea is that a driver used to the floor dimmer switch can still use it to switch between high and low beams, as long as s/he doesn't also pull the stalk lever while the headlights are on high beam (not a likely action anyway).  From his or her point of view, the only anomalies will be that if s/he does pull the stalk lever with the lights on high beam, they will unexpectedly switch to low beam, and pushing the foot switch will not put them back on high until s/he pulls the stalk lever again.  In any case, the lights won't get "stuck" on high beam.  The stalk lever will always cause the high beam to flash whether the headlight switch is on or off.

Chris Earnest

[jeffc280sl]

Hi Chris,

I think you are correct.  It appears to me on the diagram that the flash to pass wire terminates on fuse 10. (not fuse 9)

Jeff

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[A Dalton]

It is at fuse #10..
 Here is a generic schematic for the VW latching system.
 You can see how the 113 wiring changes we made  conforms to this same circuitry..  they use this on Cobras...

http://www.ffcobra.com/FAQ/lights2.gif

[gugel]

Jeff, Arthur,

I don't believe you've mentioned another advantage of using the new latching relay.  If I understand it correctly, the new circuit bypasses the headlight switch when the high beams are on, so the lights should be brighter.  On the other hand the new circuit does appear to put an additional load on fuse #1 when the high beams are on.

My modification to the circuit also provides a possible extra safety advantage:  if any driver is unaware of the new circuit, or simply forgets about it, s/he may automatically hit the foot switch to dim the lights, and that will do it.  Of course, so will pulling the stalk lever.  Redoing the same action will put the high beams back on.  

A possible disadvantage is that if someone has the high beams on and pulls the lever, then pushes the foot switch (why?!?), then one has reverse that sequence to get the high beams back on.

Chris

[A Dalton]

<<If I understand it correctly, the new circuit bypasses the headlight switch when the high beams are on, so the lights should be brighter. On the other hand the new circuit does appear to put an additional load on fuse #1 when the high beams are on.
>>

 Chris,

 That is not quite how this circuit works
 The only time high beam is fed from fuse #1 is when the L/S is in the off position.
 This is no different than the stock pass/flash feed of the original circuit using fuse #1.
 This does not show up in the schematic b/c it is an internal shunt circuit in the relays internals. If you look at the relay internal schematic , you will see this high beam shunt.
 I have a better one  which shows this much clearer [ it is the actual one off the side of the VW relay]  DNI-0127.
I will try to post that one.
 I do see your modification , but the original concept was to eliminate the F/Sw. and get the beam features up into the drivers hands , as the F/Sw is a cumbersome operation, specially for stick trans operation. I do not see any reason to still having the F/sw continue to be in the new the circuit ?

[jeffc280sl]

I have to say the circuit mods work great.  It's so much easier to use the wiper stalk for hi/lo beam switching than the foot switch when you have a manual transmission.  I like it very much.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

[A Dalton]

Here is the relay internal schematic and a footnote of where the 113 circuits hook to the relay..

 ftp://members.aol.com/ajdalton7/113stalk.jpg

[gugel]

quote:Originally posted by A Dalton

 The only time high beam is fed from fuse #1 is when the L/S is in the off position.
This is no different than the stock pass/flash feed of the original circuit using fuse #1.
This does not show up in the schematic b/c it is an internal shunt circuit in the relays internals. If you look at the relay internal schematic , you will see this high beam shunt.

...............


Here is the relay internal schematic and a footnote of where the 113 circuits hook to the relay..

 ftp://members.aol.com/ajdalton7/113stalk.jpg

Arthur,

Evidently I don't quite understand the relay schematic (which I had seen before).  It looks to me like the two switches inside the relay are ganged together, so that whenever pin 56 is connected to 56a (high beams are on), so is pin 30, from fuse 1.  What am I missing?

I also can't figure out from the schematic just how the latching function works.  From what Jeff says, the relay apparently latches only when the lights are on (pin 56 is live), and when they're not then pulling the stalk lever will connect pin 30 to 56a but only momentarily (flashing the high beam).  Is that how it works?  Maybe the small crossbar on the left internal switch indicates latching?  

As to my circuit mods, I kind of like them because it allows the lights to be controlled by either the floor switch or the stalk lever (for different drivers).  Once I get the modification done, though, I certainly will use only the stalk lever, so the floor switch is redundant.

Chris

[A Dalton]

<< so that whenever pin 56 is connected to 56a (high beams are on), so is pin 30, from fuse 1. What am I missing?
>>
 I see why one would think that..
 When the L/sw is ON , the fuse 1 circuit is only in parellel with the  12v. high beam feed  from the l/sw.  It is only when there is no l/sw feed that the high beam power is from fuse 1 circuit only.
 The latching is activated by momentary grounding of the relay coil at S via the stalk.
 This is the same regardless of where the power for beam feed is comong from...so , if L/sw is ON , power feed is for high or low , depending on previous latched position.
 If the power feed is through fuse circuit 1 only [ L/sw off] , then the high beam is still a latch system, where the next latch posistion will simply be OFF instead of low beam. So the pass/flash is not held in position, but rater switched between high beam ON and high beam OFF.  You will hear the relay click to the OFF position, but no lamps will light b/c the low beam circuit is not internaly wired in the relay, so this position is the OFF position on Pass/Flash................The reason the P/F feature is convered to a switched activation vs. a hold position activation is b/c the VW relay requires a neg switched ground, whereas  positive feed switching is the original 113 P/F set-up..
I think that should clear it up for ya.

[gugel]

Arthur,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

quote:Originally posted by A Dalton

 When the L/sw is ON , the fuse 1 circuit is only in parallel with the  12v. high beam feed from the l/sw.

OK, that's what I thought -- that when the light switch and the high beams are on, the two circuits are in parallel.  But the circuit through fuse 1 must have less resistance than the circuit through the light switch, so wouldn't the high beams be brighter than originally?

Your explanation of the latching function makes it clear that to flash the high beams with the lights off, one must quickly pull the stalk twice, not just once as with the original setup.  I had misunderstood that in Jeff's earlier post.

Chris

[A Dalton]

<<But the circuit through fuse 1 must have less resistance than the circuit through the light switch, so wouldn't the high beams be brighter than originally?>

No.. the R factor is trace in either circuit and even though a parellel circuit  has less R than any single R value in the circuit, the R factor is trace to begin with. So, there will be no lamp output difference [ not to the human eye , anyway]

<Your explanation of the latching function makes it clear that to flash the high beams with the lights off, one must quickly pull the stalk twice, not just once as with the original setup>

 I believe that to be the case, but I have only done the mod on paper w/Jeff..he has actually installed the unit and reported back that it functions, but my recall on that final point is hazy, as it was some time age.. I am sure he will jump in here to confirm the final results, one way or the other .[ latch/hold].  It is possible they have that extra set of contacts spring loaded and independent of the latching mechanics of the other set . Might just be what that cross- hatch line on the other contacts indicates in the relay internals schematic [mechanical latch  for that contact section only]...and that would be better yet.
Jeff?

[gugel]

Arthur,

I got a note from Jeff saying that when the headlight switch is off, the relay does not latch.  It works the same as originally: pulling the stalk lever turns the high beams on, and releasing it turns them off.  It would be interestng to see the inside of that relay!

Chris

PS  Congratulations on your 1000th post.  I certainly have used many of your posts myself, and am glad that you and other experts are willing to take the time to share so much information.  Many thanks!

[jeffc280sl]

The relay has a separate pair of momentary contacts for the flash to pass feature.  I hope the pic helps explain.  A little lower and to the right in the pic you will see the latching switch contacts.

Download Attachment: flash relay1.jpg
22.37 KB

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed