Author Topic: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER  (Read 15850 times)

Longtooth

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2006, 04:46:50 »
oky-doky Bob G.. good point.  I'll try shifting at peak torque next time.. right after I get my oil heat exchanger leak fixed.

By the way, my big blue book says the acceleration, 0-100 kph is

230SL with 3.75 rear end = 11.1 sec's
230SL with 4.08 rear end = 9.7 sec's
250SL with 3.92 rear end = 10 sec's (same with 3.69 rear end)
250SL with 4.08 rear end = 9.7 sec's

All the above listed for full tank with 1 passenger, but not whether with or without hardtop, and all with +/- 7% caveat (applies to 4 spd transmission).... and variation includes permissible engine output and variations in tire conditions.

If I take out 7% from the above, then the 10 sec for the 250SL goes down to 9.3 sec's and the 9.7 sec's with the 5 speed tranny goes down to 9 sec's.   Presumably, then, it's potentially possible to get to 8.6 sec's with some additional tweeks.... no passenger, no hardtop, near empty tank.... provided the engine's output is a peak levels (compression, injection and spark timing.  If the SL's anything like my '65 Chevy 327, advancing the timing for max acceleration and using a dual point centrifugal advance makes it accelerate like a rocket compared to single point vacume advance and standard (driver use) timing. In that case though, my 327 won't idle without boosting the engine speed waaaay up.... and it'll back-fire a lot too.... gurgle, gurgle, bang, bang.... not to mention dieseling if I keep it that way for awhile.

So I'm guessing the 8.6 sec's isn't a typo now... it was just done with engine and test conditions set up for max acceleration.... possibly with a 4.08 rear end and 5 speed tranny?

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

Raymond

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2006, 06:17:13 »
I haven't seen the C & D article yet, but Vince's post says the time quoted was for 5 to 60 not 0 to 60?  Don't be disappointed if you can't get to 8.6 from a standing start.

All of this 0-60 info is interesting comparison for us.  Now that I have my suspension sorted out, I want to time mine.  Just not sure my 2nd gear synchro is up to it.



Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
Ray
'68 280SL 5-spd "California" Coupe

mulrik

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2006, 10:50:08 »
Sorry Longtooth, but just to put it right. You should shift after max torque, which is 4200, say shift at around 4600, landing at ~3900-4000 going up to 4600 again and so forth. The point is that you should maximixe the area under the torque-curve, to use a mathmatical expression.
BR,
Ulrik


'67 250 SL Papyrus White 113043-10-000023

Douglas

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2006, 05:15:33 »
As Dennis Zanone pointed out in another thread, here's the article now online:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11283/features-review-1971-mercedes-benz-280sl.html

(Vince: the stats show 0-60 as well as 5-60 acceleration times.)

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

Longtooth

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2006, 03:05:01 »
mulrik,
just an engineering point... maximizing the area under the torque curve results in using the entire torque curve!  So, what I think you meant was to maximize the integral of torque/unit time... which means, in effect to use the rpm range that maximizes it... and that's from a given lower torque value, past the peak torque rpm to the rpm at the same level of torque at which you started on the lower side of peak torque.  The question becomes only to find the starting and ending points of torque values that minimize the cumulative time.

The real engineering problem solution requires knowledge of the time rate of change of torque/change in rpm... or since torque's a given fixed function of rpm, the solution ends up requiring knowledge of the time rate of change of rpm... dRPM/dt as function of rpm, to be specific.

The only reason this measure is required though is because you can't accelerate at constant torque... namely at peak torque as a constant.  Therefore some range of torque is required ... and that range which requires the least time per change in rpm on either side of rpm at peak torque produces the fastest elasped time between 2 speeds... 0 - 60, 5 - 60, 50 - 80, etc.  

Because the requisite dRPM/dt isn't a known & published quantity (outside the engine development/design engineering team), the next best solution is to do time trials.

You're original suggestion is still approx. correct anyway... shift at rpm y where y is greater than peak torque rpm, such that when engaging next higher gear, the drop in rpm below peak torque rpm is minimized. What you want to do is maximize the time spent nearest peak torque rpm thru all shifts, and minimize the time spent at rpm's where torque is furthest from peak torque.

none of that will get me under 10 sec's though, I don't think... we'll see right after I try it this week-end.... lone in the car,top down... I'll try the 5-60mph time too.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

CraigD

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2006, 09:50:42 »
I just reviewed the C&D article posted by Douglas, and I'm wondering too, it a misprint occurred.  If you look at the quoted times, the 0-60 time is less than the 5-60 time, which doesn't make sense.  Maybe they really did mean 9.6 or 10.6 for the 0-60 time.



Craig
'70 280SL Euro, Manual,  Leather
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psmith

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2006, 00:47:42 »
Longtooth,

"... maximizing the area under the torque curve results in using the entire torque curve! So, what I think you meant was to maximize the integral of torque/unit time..."  

So if I remember my calculus the area under the torque curve would be the "acceleration of torque" is that right?  And I would assume you would want to shift when the torque acceleration is at zero?

During physical time trials, I wonder if there is an aerodynamic benefit to having the softtop up or even the hardtop on (despite the weight) I think we need to find a large open parking lot somewhere that we can do some experiments.  Maybe Moffett Field?

Pete S.

Longtooth

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2006, 02:12:59 »
Pete.... it would be (i.e. area under torque curve = acceleration of torque) but only if the x-axis (absissa? or ordinate?) were in time based units... and they only "sort-of" are.... being that it's rpm, but the rate at which rpm changes is the time unit needed.

As an engineer, I've always found it interesting that the technical articles and information provided by the mfg'er never shows the maximum rate at which rpm can change in each gear... which is a complex (but definitely analytically determined) function of the cam intake and exhaust opening and closing rates & oroface's, cross-section of restrictions, pressure, & volume rate of input, and volume of the combustable material, gaseous volume at combustion temperature, & a bunch of other factors I am too ingnorant to devine... but all of which are part of the fundamental engineering design of an engine and it's ability to convert energy to revolutions of the crank --- given other loads on the crank and losses all the way thru to the drive wheel's (friction).

I know for a fact that the automobile industry (mfg'ers) know the analytic and empirical forms for the variants, since one of the engineer's I worked with designed the camshaft for one of the Ford racing engines 20 years ago... it was fundamentally limited by the stiffness profile of the shaft and cams with cam loads being continously varying per rev coupled with the resonant modes of vibration in the shaft itself with multiple vibration nodes and damping.  Vary complex mechanical vibration displacements with all designs done by mechanical modeling.  If, in my industry we can accurately model mechanical vibrations and modes to nanometers in the few nanosecond time periods, then it's a forgone conclusion that the automobile engine/drive-train designs are done with modeling at least as refined as those we use... and I'd guess a lot more (given the billions in annual revenue and competition in that industry).

Basically, all the torque curve (torque vs rpm) provides is the efficiency of conversion of energy to the crankshaft... peak torque being the most efficient point (in rpm units).... below that point the engine is starved for energy... i.e. could convert more per unit time than it's getting in energy input... and above peak torque the engine loses efficiency of conversion... I'm guessing, but probably because thermal gradiant's develop such that local points of heat  energy can't be efficiently dissipated fast enough so local expansion's increase, which increase frictional losses... not to mention the vibrational nodes that develop within the cam, the rate at which the valves can open/close without bounce, etc.

If you think about it from an engineering standpoint, there's been quite an advance in energy conversion to the crank over the last 40 years... think about the torque developed in a new 230 MB sedan compare to the 230SL of our 113 vintage automobiles.... unfortunately, however, it's taken far too long to reach that state of efficiency.... since, in actual fact there was little to force the conversion until the Japanese entered the market place and began to sway consumers in the US and force the rest of the world-wide (read US and Europe) auto mfg'ers to tow the line.

Energy conversion can be taken as fuel efficiency, or as torque & hp efficiency per unit displacement..... or a combination thereof. ... so the US focused on using it to provide SUV's... read hp to drive greater mass/unit displacement.    Interesting how virtually unlimited real-estate in the US allows larger, heavier vehicles to gain consumer's, while in Europe & Japan, with vastly limited real-estate and smaller older narrower streets in towns and cities (which grew from the days of buggies), the gain of consumer's interests is in smaller more negotiable vehicles, not to mention their higher relative costs of energy.  Truth be told though, MB and in earlier  years, BMW, Jaguar, Bently, etc. were the cars of 'kings'... i.e. the elite class of consumer that didn't care much about fuel efficiency nor size of streets in cities.  As price of energy has risen in relative terms, so too has energy conversion efficiency improved in the automobile.... the economic balance always provides the incentives.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

Longtooth

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Re: Pagoda Test in CAR & DRIVER
« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2006, 02:24:11 »
The times posted in the article may just be from MB's 280SL published spec's in their Big Blue manual.  My Big Blue only goes thru the 250SL's so doesn't list the 280's... and later.  

Can somebody with a Big Blue that covers the 280sl, preferably thru the '71 model post the published spec's for 0 - 100 kph with various rear ends?  

If the 250SL publishes 9.7 sec's 0 - 100 kph with the right rear-end, then it's conceivable that the '71 280sl manual may have picked up another second or so.... especially without the hard-top on, 1 driver (no passenger), and 1/8th tank of fuel.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport