Need help - how would you evaluate this car?

[miniwarmth]

Hi all,
I've been lurking on your wonderful site for awhile now and am finally getting a bit more serious about a car.  http://nikscars.mine.nu/~Home/Cars/MB%20230sl.html It's a '67 230sl that has spent its life in the northeast.

The current owner has owned in since 1995 and put on about 20K for total of 102K.  The car had a exterior overhaul about 8 years ago and looks good.  I would say that the restoration was okay, with some obvious details missed(chrome strip, phillips screws on rockers, bumper spacing/fitment, etc).  Also after a doing a more thorough review today, I noticed the spots that were in need of my attention - predominantly the floor pans(see pics).

In terms of driving it:  the steering is a bit sloppy, the car dives and moves a bit left/right upon hard breaking.  It accelerates nicely, idles nicely but does smoke a bit when the throttle is raised or upon starting. The owner tells me he puts in about 1 quart of oil per year.  It is driven from Mar-November then garaged.  The tops are in great shape - the soft looks practically new.

I would love some input on the value of this car. As well as any perspective on the issues that I have described.

I'm having a Alex at DearbornAuto and Paul at Star  Service in MA look at the car in detail this Friday.  But could cancel if I get too scared by the comments received.

Thanks in advance,
Best,
Nik[url]

[KevinC]

Nik, Just one man's opinion...here's what scares me: "...spent its life in the northeast".

Northeast = snow; snow = salt, salt = rust; rust = bad pagoda.

There cars are prone to rust anyway and a car from the northeast would scare me away. In fact it did... I looked at cars all over the US (I travel alot) and the two in New England were on the low end of the totem pole. I guess rust truly never sleeps as they say. I ended up on www.oursl.com and bought a totally rust-free car in Northern California and paid $1,500 to have it shipped to my home. I bet $1,500 would go a very short way in rust repairs on a 40 year old car. Again, that's just me.

-Kevin

PS: After coming close to buying a car needing lots of repair, I read this forum and took the advice: buy the absolute best example you can find!



Kevin Caputo
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex

[hauser]

For what it's worth Paul at Star Service is very resonable on his pre purchase inspections.  I have had him do inpsections on two pagodas and one '95 E320 coupe.  One Pagoda I passed on but the other two cars I bought with no regrets.  Paul is very honest and won't hold anything back.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[rwmastel]

The car is a little rough, maybe a lot rough.  It's hard to tell by pictures.  I'm no price expert, but I would say the value should be anywhere between 8,000 and 14,000.  It depends on too many factors, but these guys will be able to do the job.  I would keep both appointments!

Most important question: what are your expectations for you Pagoda?  How many miles do you want to drive it per year?  Do you want it in "show condition"?  Do you expect to work on it yourself or use a mechanic?  Please, tell us.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Cees Klumper]

Based on what is visible in the photos (a lot is not) I would not go through the trouble of inspections, unless you expect to be able to buy the car very cheap and are looking forward to restoring it yourself, and that is one of the reasons for buying a Pagoda. An owner who let the cosmetics go this far also did not put any effort into rust prevention or remediation, mechanical upkeep etc.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[mdsalemi]

Hello Nik,

Welcome to non-lurking status.

If you haven't heard it before, hear it now: buy the best car you can afford.

If you can afford more then the asking price of this car, that is my suggestion.  There are plenty of 230SL, 250SL and 280SL's around in equal or better condition--perhaps not in your backyard, but they are available.

There are quite a few cars out there that have incorrect or missing trim; so your missing chrome isn't alarming.  Also, some people over the years actually removed chrome because they didn't like it.  Some don't like whitewall tires either.  If you want to bring it back to "as delivered" then you'd have to find the trim pieces--not impossible, but a task, and one that will cost something.

Sloppy steering could be any number of things from bad tires to a bad steering box, loose fittings in the suspension, or old or bad rubber.  Not unexpected at 39 years/102K miles unless somebody was on top of things at all times.  They rarely are or we'd never see cars degrade like this.

Smoky?  Round up a group of 113's and you'll see a lot of smoke.  Best to do a compression at minimum, leakdown at maximum test in your inspection to determine the condition of the engine.  It probably has not been rebuilt, but at 102K, may be due for a rebuild in your lifetime.

Alex Dearborn is very well known and I can almost guarantee you will be alarmed at the comments.  There's a lot to do on this car just from the photos, and you'll hear about all of that.  You'll also hear about the things we can't see--which might be more.

Take Rodd's comments to heart and determine what your needs and goals are.  Take Kevin's advice on buying the best you can afford.  While there is a LOT wrong with this car, there's plenty right too--making it an ideal candidate for restoration.  Restoration will cost more money then you think (trust me on this) particularly if you hire it out.  Total restorations on cars like this usually occurs when someone wants to do it themselves as a fun or learning experience or if there is some sentimental reason.  Leave your checkbook at home if you don't fit into these categories...

On another note, I've been seeing, hearing and watching a lot of 113's being offered for sale recently, some changing hands, and peculiarly, the majority of them are 230SL's.  There are 280's out there, too--you just have to look.

I agree with Rodd on the value, just based on what we know now.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Kenneth Gear]

I concur with previous comments.  Consider your goals for the car.  If you want a good solid driver (not a show car),are mechanically inclined, have some money to spend, and are aventurous then this may be a good car your.

If you are not mechanically inclined and want a good solid driver, you will likely need a good amount of money available to fix the obvious things that need fixing (floor pans, heater controls, radio, and other dash items) There are rust spots on various parts of the body as well. That means a potential paint job.  

I'm not sure what the asking price is but to bring it up to good solid driver status will cost you as much as an existing vehicle in good shape ($30,000K)





Ken G
1971 280 SL
Silver/red

[joelj]

Hi Miniwarmth,

I saw the photos and there is alot of rusts. I am having my 280sl go through a ground up restoration and compared to your car,  mine did not have as much rust that was visible to the naked eye. But when we took out the paint, the rusts showed up and I am glad I had the restoration done.

Just like what everyone says, it would be best to get the best car you can find/afford.

It took me 2 years to find mine and I am glad I waited for the best one I could find.

Cheers,

joel-j

1969 280sl auto
White exterior
Blue interior

[miniwarmth]

What wonderful input/feedback.  Thank you all for sufficiently scaring me.  It has certainly brought me down from my high.  When I first saw it, I noticed nothing, 2nd visit opened my eyes a bit more, and my third visit and drive(yesterday) opened them further. I suspect that Alex and Star Motor will do the rest

Let me answer a few of the questions:

-  I'm looking for a good driver for 9 mos. of the year(I live in the city and don't need a car that often, and when I do I can/use our family vehicle).  I would expect that 5,000 per year would be about right.

-  I'm mechanically inclined and expect to do much of the work  However, when it comes to body or major mechanical  I'll send it off.

-  As I'm likely to be working outside of the US by 2008 for an extended period, I would like to enjoy the next year or so with a open top car, like the SL.  I was looking for a similiar vintage E-Type, but I just don't have the time to devout to a car that requires so so much more maintenance(and costs a lot more to buy).  When/If I leave then I would either :  sell it, start the restoration work that I can't handled, or store it.

- I don't need a show condition car, and would feel quite bad if I had one - that sounds pretty sad. But I know that it would slip a bit and none of us would want that.  

-I really want a solid driver car that I can enjoy but not be obsessisive about.  Much like my '71 BMW R60/5 - great rider, looks good, but not perfect. I hope I'm not offending anyone with this sort of talk.


thanks,
Nik

[waqas]

Just to add to your confusion, it all depends on the price. If it's cheap enough (say $5k), I would jump on it! Then again, I'm a glutton for punishment, and more importantly, my rationale is based on the fact that I'd do most of the repairs myself (like I said, a glutton!) If you were to have the work done, then heed the advice here: buy the best car you can afford.

Heck, for $5k, that thing is worth the parts alone (but no more).
BONUS: you even get parts for other cars-- like a brake booster from a 200D!

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[miniwarmth]

So all the is talk and a slight change in job/travel has me thinking that I should be looking harder for cars from CA....surprise, surprise.  Probably not a guarantee of no rust, but more likely a higher number of cars without it.  My price range hasn't changed much probably 20 at the tops...so if anyone comes across a good solid body, decent driver, that just needs some TLC  please let me know.  I'll be in SoCal in two weeks for about 7 days. In the meantime, I'll start scowering the net for cars listed out there.

Also, I'll probably still take a deeper look at the local car. If the price is right, who knows what I might do.  If it's not, at least I'll learn more about what to look for/identify on future cars.

Best,
Nik
miniwarmth@mac.com