Author Topic: Overheating/Cooling System  (Read 10639 times)

n/a

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Overheating/Cooling System
« on: June 26, 2006, 22:31:07 »
Greetings to All,

I would like to hear from some members who live in very warm climates.  Do you ever get to drive your cars?  I've owned my 70 113 (with Auto & A/C I've never used)) for two years and have never been able to drive it due to chronic overheating.  My mechanic, (One of the best in Los Angeles for these cars, who also did the restoration) finally said to me last week that in all his years (25) of working on and restoring 113's, he's only had one other car as tempermental as mine... Great! At this point we've tried most all of the usual tricks, (2) new heads, ultra-capacity radiator, hoses, temp guage, water pump, etc.  The last hope is the strap-on electric fan in front of the radiator. This latter measure requires the removal of one of the A/C condensers. The engine has 119,000 miles, but does not use oil. (to speak of)  My mechanic said even a complete engine rebuild would not guarantee a solution to the problem. I need a reality check here. I know the cars have a propensity to run hot, but shouldn't that needle top out somewhere south of the red zone even on a hot day?  The worst is in stopped traffic (a daily fact of life in Los Angeles) on the freeway or a traffic light. The minute I slow down, the needle climbs to red.  Will I have to move to Alaska in order to drive this car? What is your experience with the electric fan. I have conflicting reports on this. I sought a second opinion and was told by that mechanic that there's no electric fan powerful enough to deal with this problem. I'm told Mercedes retro-fitted many 280 class cars with these fans as a fix back when they were new. I noticed a member writing from Dubai last week. How does he keep his car from self-destructing in that heat? Am I just expecting to much from this vehicle? I need some good news here, otherwise there's going to be one less car in the family... :(

Many Thanks,

Steven

hands_aus

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2006, 05:23:32 »
Have you also had
new correct temperature thermostat?
cooling system back-flush?
timing correct?
correct temp range spark plugs?
air/fuel mixture correct.. too lean perhaps?

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
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best of the best

mdsalemi

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2006, 06:01:23 »
...to add to Bob's (hands-aus) excellent comments--all items which cause a car to run hotter--may I suggest you also consider the oil cooler?

The oil in our cars runs around and cools the engine just like the coolant...so an engine flush might be in order as well as a re-coring of the oil cooler.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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jeffc280sl

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2006, 06:23:09 »
I installed an electric fan in front of the radiator by removing the condenser.  It has an adjustable thermostat and I can hear it come on in traffic.  Hard to say how effective it is.  One would need to have a static set of test conditions. My fan is small in diameter because space in front of the radiator is so tight I would consider removing the mechanical fan and replacing it with a large electric puller fan.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

ted280sl

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2006, 07:00:53 »
Steven,
  The one item I did not see listed so far is the correct water mixture. While it might seem like a good idea to run on 100% antifreeze, it is not as effective a coolant as a mixture of water and anti-freeze. There are also some additives that improve heat transfer. I suspect your problems are more severe than an incorrect coolant mixture but, I thought it might be worth a try.
Regards,
Ted

PS: I believe there was a heat shield kit made available form MB which funneled heat from the exhaust manifold out of he engine compartment.

bpossel

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2006, 07:16:17 »
One add'l item may be a bad Visco Fan.  I recently replaced mine and seems to keep the engine cooler during stop and go driving.
Bob


bpossel  (Memphis, TN.)
'71 280SL  /  '97 E320
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 07:54:40 by bpossel »

RBurg

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2006, 07:25:12 »
Steve: Might look at adding a chemical additive that makes water wetter. If claim to give a better heat transfer and lower operating temp.

Ron - Minnesota
71 280SL Tobacco "O GIGI"
97 E420 Silver Mist

rogerh113

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2006, 07:57:51 »
Hi Steven,

Just as a sanity check, I live in the California Bay Area (southern penninsula).  Mine is a '66 230SL, and I drive it several times a week.  There was a MB rally couple of weeks ago, where I ran the car on and off the freeway (mostly off) for about 7 hours in pretty hot weather (80s to 90s in the inland areas) with no overheating issues.  It IS possible to get your car to run in hot weather - my guess is that there is a single issue in the cooling system that is holding you back.  I also had a freeway overheating problem for a while which turned out to be a radiator recore.  Unless there is some really massive, unusual heat source in your engine, it would seem that the cooling system is not successfully removing the heat as it should.

Personal opinion - while your mechanic may be the 'best in the area', sometimes a short look by another 'best in the area mechanic' may spot something the first guy overlooked/didn't execute quite right.  The first guy is probably not really 'seeing' the car after all the time he has spent on it.

Regards -- Roger
1966 230SL black 4 speed (250 low compression engine)

n/a

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2006, 08:47:24 »
I live in So. Cal. and drive my 280SL on hot days, with A/C on.  I will shut it off in heavy traffic and no over heating.  Only on hot days in city traffic with A/C on does it come even close to over heating.


The 70 and 71s had different emission equipment (and cylinder head) and run hotter but what you are describing sounds unusual.  I've had mine serviced by Steve Marx in Costa Mesa.  He's great and will find the problem.  Found another great guy, German no less, who runs a small shop out of a gas station in San Pedro.  Called Z Benz.

Try either of these guys for an opinion before spending money on more elaborate fixes.

Good luck!

Pete

Douglas

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2006, 08:51:24 »
Steven,

Have you been in touch with Tom Collit out there? Is he your mechanic? If not, you may want to give him a call. He knows these cars as well as anyone.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

George Davis

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2006, 13:47:59 »
A simple thing to try is to raise the idle speed to about 1000 rpm with your right foot when you come to a stop.

I did this when my car was overheating a couple of years ago, stuck in a major traffic jam on a hot day.  Watched the gauge climb into the red.  Turned on heater - ubercooked in the cabin, but no big effect.  Raised idle speed to 1000-1200 rpm with foot, gauge started dropping in seconds.  Manual trans so no load on the engine; you can either power brake it, or shift to neutral.  

If this keeps your temp in check, I'd guess that it is mostly too little airflow at idle speed.  Upping the idle also increases the coolant flow, too, and that may be part of it as well.

Good luck!


George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

nirmal

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2006, 15:15:14 »
I drove my car yesterday in Dubai and the ambient temperature was 40C (104F). No problems. Used the A/C but turned it off in the stop/go traffic. The temp hovers between the 180F to 200F mark. I do not have an electric fan but have a new radiator.

Nirmal
1969 280 SL auto
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 15:17:54 by nirmal »

n/a

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2006, 23:44:33 »
Greetings to all,

Many, many thanks for all of your input.  It looks like this isn't going to be a simple matter.  Much more investigating to do.  For the record, Scott Melnick is my mechanic and he restored the car.  From what I see in his shop, I think I'm in the right place.  But, a third opinion is in order. I'll check out the guy in Orance County.

Best to all,

Steven Murphy
Los Angeles

farmerford

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2006, 17:55:33 »
I have a 1971 280SL daily driver with AC that overheated badly with the AC on in our South Georgia heat.  After confirming that all the basics were okay (timing, fuel mixture, viscous fan coupling, fan belt, water pump, oil cooler) I moved up one level to "aftermarket" stuff.  Water Wetter (by Redline) combined with a 20% antifreeze mixture seemed to help a little, but not much.  I installed a small electric booster fan in front of the radiator. I made a special bracket that let me leave the AC condenser in place.  The fan helped a little, but not much. Increasing the idle rpm and shifting to neutral at stops helped most, but my wife (who drives it to work and in her job travels) balked at the hassle.  If you increase the idle and do not shift into neutral the overheating is made worse because some of the additional energy is turned into heat in the transmission and ultimately ends up back in the radiator.

Several things suggested that the problem was poor coolant flow.  One, I pulled the head to learn why #4 cylinder compression was so low (105# vs 160 for the other five).  I knew it was that way when I bought it with about 100,000 mi. The cylinder walls of #4 were scored badly in a way that indicated that the cylinder walls had overheated so severely that the rings wiped molten metal off them.  Yet the other cylinders were undamaged.  This suggested that the area around #4 got much hotter than the others.  That area just happens to be near the temperature sending bulb, indicating that the guage was reading the hottest part of the engine.

Two, as others have commented, when you rev the engine after sitting at idle you get a quick drop in guage temperature.  That suggests that cooler water is near the guage but is not getting there at lower rpms.  If cooler water hits the guage that quickly, it must already be cool since the few seconds delay can't be enough time for increased air flow from the fan to cool the radiator water very much.  Therefore, the radiator water must be cooling properly, even at idle.  That's why an electric fan helps only a bit. That's also why Water Wetter and low antifreeze ratios are only marginally helpful.

Three, a hand held pyrometer showed that the area around #4 was 10-15 degrees hotter than at the front of the engine. Yet one would expect the front to be  hotter because the water in that area has (to some extent,at least) already traveled past the rearward cylinders.

Then, while cruising the web I found a discussion on another site (no longer around) that referenced changes by MB on the late 280 cylinder heads to reduce overheating, and a reference to a "kit" from MB that could be installed.

I found one of the kits on line, but they wanted $400 for it and I could not learn enough about it to be sure it worked.

So, I experimented with my own.  I removed the thermo-time valve located in the rearmost threaded boss on the cylinder head.  This exposed an opening connecting directly to the water jacket.  I installed a 3/8 hose barb fitting in the opening and then ran the hose to a "T" fitting which I made and installed in the upper radiator hose.  This allowed water to travel directly from the rear of the cylinder head to the radiator without travelling through the cylinder head.

The effect was dramatic.  The car would idle in 100 degree weather, in traffic, with the AC on, and the temperature would get near, but never reach, the red.  In more normal driving, it stayed around 190 degrees.

I later saw a picture of the MB kit and it was a much more professionally made version of mine.  Furthermore, it routed the water from the rear of the cylinder head to the heater return line which in turn directed the water into the block just below the thermostat.  I could not understand why MB didn't send the water directly to the radiator, like I did.  It seemed to me that you would get higher flow from my system because of the shorter route and fewer twists and turns.

That winter, I learned that (of course) MB knew a whole lot more than I did.  With my bypass line in place, the engine would never warm up.  Even with the thermostat fully closed (because the engine was just started), on a cool day (say 50 degrees), enough water flowed through my 3/8" hose to keep the engine temperature below 100 degrees even on the highway.  That showed just how much heat a small stream of water can carry away.  And it explained why MB routed the water through the heater lines and ultimately the thermostat.  In their system, the thermostat controls all the water leaving the block, including that from the bypass hose.  My jackleg solution was to put a globe valve in the hose.  In summer I open the valve and let the water flow freely from the rear of the head to the radiator.  In winter, I close the valve and there is no flow at all.

This has worked well enough that I have not gone further, except to make a fixture to hold the thermo time valve which can no longer plug into the head because the bypass hose take up its spot.  The thermo time valve is no longe immersed in coolant inside the head, but it is touching the head and seems to activate the cold start valve as well as it did before, so I assume it must be reaching about the same temperatures outside the head as inside.

The real test came last Monday when my wife had to make a long trip on short notice.  She came home Sunday complaining of noise from the AC.  I checked and found that the AC compressor clutch bearing was going bad, and threated to lock up at any minute.  All the shops were closed, and she had to leave early Monday morning.  In this system, the AC belts also drive the fan and indirectly the alternator.  So I could not just remove the belts and let the compressor sit idle. Furthermore, it was supposed to be 98 degrees for both days of her trip and wanted her to stay cool.  Since I plan to replace the original York compressor with a new Sanden anyway, I just welded the clutch together so it would always be engaged.  Didn't even have to take it off the car, since the front of the clutch is accessible just below and behind the radiator.

Since the clutch is permanently engaged, the AC compressor runs all the time.  You can't turn it off.  My wife was delighted.  She said it stopped rattling (I knew it would do that), cooled better than ever before (a surprise because I assumed the clutch was engaged all the time anyway), and she didn't have to remember to turn the AC off when cranking (which I made her do to reduce the starter load).

  If I have time I would like to install a coolant recirculating pump (like those in the later MB heater systems) in the bypass hose  just to see what happens and a more effective radiator.  A supplemental transmission fluid cooler should also reduce the load on the radiator.  But the results with the simple bypass hose and fan have gotten us by for several years, and there are more pressing problems (like the welded up AC clutch! and the door locks with minds of their own).

If anyone is interested, McMaster Carr has a metric to NPT adapter that screws right into the threaded boss (14x1.5mm, I think) at the rear of the head and makes attaching the hose very easy.  The "T" fitting for the upper radiator hose had to be made, but it is easy with a welder, and I might be able to figure a way to make it without welding if anyone is interested.


 


Charles H. Ford, Jr.

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 09:05:20 »
so, I have seen many posts on overheating on the sl's and I understand there are many items that need to be instpected to ensure proper cooling.

I found this web site for diesel mb maintenance
http://dieselgiant.com/thermostatreplacementandmodif.htm

the guy talks about taking a thermostat and drilling a few holes around the perimeter to allow for more coolant.  supposidly this does not impact the thermostat and also allows for the motor to stay cooler in hotter climates.
I thought this was an interesting take on one way to manage cooling diesel mb's in a hot climate and thought I would toss this info into the pile and see what eveyone else thinks.

matt
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

jeffc280sl

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2006, 14:12:25 »
Charles,  That's a interesting modification you made to the head to improve cooling.  The by-pass cooling instructions I have from MB for the 1970 model call for the cylinder head water line to be connected to the lower radiator hose.  You indicate looking at a MB picture which routed the head output to the heater return line.  Has anyone taken hot water from the head and routed it to the heater return line.  This would be a relatively simple mod although it does not allow for the thermo time valve.  I'm going to look into designing a pipe elbow as described in the MB instructions so that I can use the thermo time switch while routing water from the head to the heater return line.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

merrill

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2006, 15:47:24 »
Charles
any chance you can post a photo of your modification?
It is almost always hot here in austin texas and when I get my 230 sl running I may need to implemenet your modification.

matt
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

psmith

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2006, 00:02:47 »
Steven,

I was on the drive with Roger, and I drive my car a lot here in San Jose in the summer, usually 90° to 100° and my car never overheats.  But it's a 230 with no AC or smog, like his, and maybe that's the difference.

Pete S.

farmerford

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 07:16:53 »
Merrill and Jeff:

Yes, I will post some pictures.  Give me a few days to get my daughter to take them (I am the only person I know who doesn't own a digital camera).  I may have also located all the necessary parts "off the shelf" so no fabrication will be necessary.

Chuck Ford

Charles H. Ford, Jr.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2006, 16:56:13 »
I've learned that there are 3 different versions of 280SL engine.
1) used on all cars up to mid 1969. The head usually says '' 280 '' on the side. This type has no vacuum control and cast iron distributor. Somewhere around the first 7,000 cars.

2) aluminium distributor, head usually says '' 280SE/A '' and has vacuum control system. Several modifications such as added coolant ports and different cumbustion chambers. Head gaskets are different.

3) further modified from about 13,500 cars. Longer head bolts, different oil pan ( ribbed on bottom with windage tray inside ), different oil pump added coolant ports, wider cut out between cylinders, different valve cover and probably a few other things.

This last version should run a bit cooler than the first modified version but I have no data to confirm this.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
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1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
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n/a

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2006, 13:25:02 »
Hey Steven.  May I have the contact information for Scott Melnick?  My boss has a vintage Mercedes and she needs a mechanic who can do the job!  Thanks in advance.

quote:
Originally posted by SoCalSteve

Greetings to all,

Many, many thanks for all of your input.  It looks like this isn't going to be a simple matter.  Much more investigating to do.  For the record, Scott Melnick is my mechanic and he restored the car.  From what I see in his shop, I think I'm in the right place.  But, a third opinion is in order. I'll check out the guy in Orance County.

Best to all,

Steven Murphy
Los Angeles


Amanda

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2006, 12:49:16 »
I'd really like to get Scott Melnick's contact information as well if anyone has it - or the info for any other mechanic located in the Los Angeles area.  

Thanks.


Amanda
1966 230SL
Manual
Red/Tan
Los Angeles

psmith

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2006, 23:01:20 »
Amanda,

Tom Collit at Classic Autos 323-251-0987 has a good reputation on this list.

Pete S.

athadani

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Re: Overheating/Cooling System
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2006, 11:28:42 »
Just a contribution of my experience. 1970 US 280SL auto - tried everything and replaced everything related to the problem, without results. Finally, my Mechanic in Geneva, CH advised that the cylinder head gasket be replaced with a new one. No problem since. Gauge has never trespassed the red zone.

Lousy problem to have. Hope you find a good solution.


Ashok