Exhaust Systems

[n/a]

I can no longer wait to replace my exhaust system, as it is at its end. I have three choices, and would like to hear the pros-cons for these:
1. OEM Mercedes muffler/pipes (probably too expnsive, and probably made by someone else anyway?)
2. A substitute steel muffler sold by my local muffler shop. He says it is European, but wont disclose name.
3. TimeValve Stainless Steel system: I was about to go ahead with this last year, until I saw a post from someone who had just installed it, and they stated that it sounded much louder than the stock muffler, and were not that happy.
I am looking for something as quiet as the stock muffler, not throaty or loud. Any ideas which is best?
Thanks

[J. Huber]

Hi SD. I wanted to mention that, if I understand your question, another option may exist -- I would call it 1A. Using our usual 113 suppliers, you can get exhaust parts that are very good -- but maybe not as costly as the MBZ dealer might charge.

James
63 230SL

[Cees Klumper]

I got an all stainless system from Van Dijk's (one of our regular W113 suppliers) last year and have been very satisfied with it. The sound is great, not loud and it's clamped rather than welded. I found it quite easy to install just right, so that it does not sag under the car like my old (welded) system did. I also like the peace of mind from stainless over regular steel. Many people have reported being happy with the Timevalve system.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[rwmastel]

SD,
TimeValve is not your only choice for SS exhaust, but it's probably the most common.  Many people do report that it's louder or maybe just has a different pitch.  Some like it, some don't.  Living in San Diego, California, you should be able to find a member of this Group near you with SS and you could listen to it!

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[hauser]

I have the Time Valve exhaust on my car and like Cees mine is also clamped.  I also had this on my 250sl.  If I'm no mistaken Bola also makes a SS system.  By taking a look at your criteria I'd say go with a factory setup.  I'll stick with SS.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[Vince Canepa]

I like the stock system.  I installed mine (myself) in 1986 and it is still in great condition.  To combat the problem of the stock system rotting out, I plug the pipes with rolled up rags when I shut down.  That prevents the system from drawing in moisture laden air as it cools; most of the corrosion is from the formation of sulfuric acid as exhaust byproducts mix with moisture.  I started this practice when I installed the current system and can't believe how well it has worked.
I put this system on after a fiasco with Borla. I purchased their system and installed it.  There were all sorts of "harmonic" periods that left my ears ringing.  I called them and they asked me to bring them the car (I lived in Santa Cruz, CA at the time, some 300 miles north of their facility).  I brought them the car and they fooled around for an entire day.  The revised system was nearly as bad so I pulled it and shipped it back to them.  That is when I went down to the dealer, bought my current system and installed it myself.  You have to be careful about aligning the various pieces.  I suggest having the car on a rack that has the weight of the car on it's suspension.  The system will move as the weight of the car settles all the various mounts.  If not done right it can hit the rear axle or the rear quarter panel.  I supported mine on jack stands under the suspension.
I have never heard a Timevalve system or known anybody that has one installed on a W113.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[mdsalemi]

Gents,

There is no question that the TimeValve system is a bit louder or more throaty then stock.  I understand, though have not verified, that when you order a TimeValve system today, you can choose between their TimeValve standard sound, or a "stock" sound which would be quieter.  Since they do custom systems as well, I'm sure this can be handled on a one by one basis if you ask.  I have the standard TimeValve system.  I wouldn't say it is loud by any means, but would definitely say it isn't as quiet as a factory exhaust system.  But then again, once you change any factory exhaust system, you are bound to have some changes--either harmonics, vibrations, or even pipes hitting various suspension pieces.  On my car, Dr. Benz discovered the down pipe clunking agains the idler arm.

2)  Vince, I'm somewhat surprised that you have not heard of Time Valve.  When it comes to any discussion of any exhaust system on any Mercedes (or BMW or other "higher-end" European car, they are the ones whose name comes up.  They are regular advertisers in The Star, Hemmings, The Roundel, etc. and perhaps the innovators in stainless steel systems.  Now that you know who they are you can visit them at: http://www.timevalve.com/

3)  Expect to pay in the $700+ range for a SS system.  I suspect that a standard system from your local muffler supplier would be quieter, less costly, and would definitely require more frequent replacement, particularly if your car is a daily driver.  Vince provided an interesting if not difficult to remember tip to preserve an exhaust system.  Quite surprisingly, all the mounting hardware and clamps, etc. are NOT included in the Time Valve system; you buy them separately, and you should.  You can't get SS hardware for this at Pep Boys.  It you use stock steel exhaust hardware on a SS system, what's the point?

4)  The factory system is welded; the SS system and other aftermarket is clamped.  You will be deducted points, for those who care, on such non factory exhaust systems in an MBCA sanctioned concours Show category where the underside is judged.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Vince Canepa]

I did not say I had not "heard of" Timevalve.  I said I had not "heard" a Timevalve system on a W113.  I talked to them when I went with the Borla, but they could not guarantee I would not have the same issues, so I passed. I also found that the clamped on system (Borla) was a PITA to get fitted up right.  When I installed the stock system, it was really quite easy to get everything where I wanted it, then I tacked it up and dropped it down a bit for the final welding.  It looks good, sounds good (I always liked the sound of the stock system - a bit higher pitched than the aftermarket systems - the aftermarket systems sounds too much like an old Jag for my taste) and has lasted 18 years through the implementation of a simple procedure.  I have had to drop out the system once to touch up the paint and it is due again.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[mdsalemi]

Vince,

Sorry I misunderstood.  The TimeValve systems are not too uncommon on 113's; various threads on this website and the old Yahoo site all mention them (i.e. people like me and Tom Sargeant fitting them)--with their noise as it were.  My restorer installed mine and I suspect it might have been no different in difficulty then your Borla--a royal PITA.  Part of the trouble with SS sytems is it is very hard to re-shape any of the tubes--it takes dogged determination and some experience to manipulate 304SS in an exhaust system.  Small manufacturing tolerances will yield unyielding pipes that need to be 2-3mm bent the other way, for example.

The sound of a 113 automatic downshifing and pulling into a driveway is a sound burned into my brain from childhood; my uncle's 113 (now mine) as well as a neighbors.  Sadly, I don't have that same sound with the TimeValve.  But then again I have all kinds of sounds emanating from this 36 year old car that for some reason I don't remember!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[norton]

I won a NOS Monza exhaust system on eBay last year, havent put it on yet. Anybody remember that system, how do they sound?

[tobacco]

My Timevalve was the easiest installation I'd ever had; it fit like a glove back in 1988 and it's still there.  

That said, I've never liked the Timevalve sound*.  I've described it in previous posts, but to my ear it's brittle, harsh and loud.  Originally, with the top down and the OEM system installed, I mostly heard a warm, full purr from the exhaust tip on acceleration; but now the sound seems to come up through the floorboard.

What I really miss is the feel of my first exhaust replacement, a 1974 Abarth.  It burbled like a baby Ferrari -- and lasted all of 14,000 miles.  Joe Alexander might remember the SuperSprint exhaust that came next; he installed it in 1976.  Once again, a nice, warm, sporty sound with a propensity to easy rusting.  In neither case did the larger diameter, angle-cut chrome tailpipes bother me, although I'd probably be out of the running at any concours today.

I may make a change with some corroboration of Vince's sock trick.  If I can be confident that the steel corrosion can be controlled, I'll happily reserve my proven, reliable, unworn Timevalve to whoever wants it while I check with Joe, Pete Lesler, Manfred Pfeiffer and Gernold Nisius about how I can get my throaty rumble back.

(I guess I'd also ask Joe if there's any reason to suspect that the reduced back pressure I'd assumed as a cause of my Abarth/SuperSprint infatuation might have contributed to the valve/ring engine problems I suffered later.)

A radical option would be for all of us who are delighted with John Olsen's progressive-rate springs to call Minneapolis and see what it would take for him to develop an Abarth-sounding exhaust system, with near-stock chrome  tips and shipped with a perfect-fitting pair of Vince's stocking stuffers.

* In all fairness, maybe the newer Timevalves are constructed differently and perhaps sound better; it might be worth a direct inquiry to the manufacturer.


Bill Greffin
Chicago
#22375

[Tom]

Bill,

I installed a Time Valve and did not like the noise so I installed a stock system.

To prevent corrosion, I had the entire stock system Jet Hot coated-a ceramic coating professionally sprayed at the Jet Hot factory.  Been on for 4 years and still looks new.  Sounds good too!

Best,

Tom



1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)

[n/a]

Tom and others,
When you say you installed a "stock" system, do you mean one purchased from a M/B dealer? Is it labeled as Mercedes, or is it manufactured by someone else and sold by others as the "stock" system??
In San Diego, we don't have that much of a rust problem anyway.

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by SD280SL

In San Diego, we don't have that much of a rust problem anyway.

The rust comes from the inside.  After a drive, condensation will develop on the inside of the system and eventually rust it out.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Tom]

When I say "stock" I mean Mercedes purchased from a Mercedes dealer.

Rodd,  The Jet Hot coating is a coating that is applied on the inside and outside of the exhaust pipes.  The actual muffler is not coated on the inside, so it is true that rust could develop on the inside of the muffler.  But until it rusts through, it sure does look good to have an all black muffler with no rust!

The other purpose of the coating is to retain heat inside the system-this helps ensure better exhaust "scavenging".  From the exhaust manifold through the tail pipe is coated to help retain the heat.

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)

[ja17]

Hello
The type of driving you do will greatly effect the life of your factory exhaust system. Short start-ups and very short trips will not  allow hot exhaust gases to dry condensation which collects after start up in humid climates. This condensation will mix with exhaust deposits forming a slightly acidic soup and lay in the low parts of the system unless the exhaust system is hot enough to dry everthing out.
Mercedes systems and most replacemnt systems for Mercedes cars have virtually no back pressure. You can drop a marble in the front pipes and it will roll all the way through the system and drop out the tail pipes. This is best for power but it also tends to take a little longer to dry out condensation than other systems on other cars. Some other car manufacturer's systems have series of baffles in the exhaust mufflers to dampen noise which creates back pressure and robs power. However the hot exhaust gases in these systems are forced to snake around in all areas of the mufflers, drying everything out sooner.

The construction in a Mercedes system is simply a perforated tube passing through a muffler packed with sound absorbing insulation. It takes much longer for the heat from exhaust to work its way to the entire muffler. The insulative materials also collect moisture and insulates heat away longer. Very little power is lost from "back pressure" which is minimal in this type.  Rust through can occure much sooner however.  

.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[Vince Canepa]

As Rodd and Joe point out, the corrosion is mostly internal and is not rust, per se, but sulfuric acid corrosion.  When I start my car now, after the "stocking stuffers" (I like that term - Ha!) very little moisture comes out the exhaust.  That was the whole idea - if the I could reduce the amount of moisture laden air entering the system. I also think that the sulfur content of gasoline is going down and that helps quite a bit.

I never really had trouble with the pipes rotting out.  Usually the first to rot through was the resonator, then the muffler.  I had quite a few Mercedes of the era (W114, 115, 108) and exhaust systems really tended to be short lived - about three years max.  Of course, I lived in a coastal area.  We never really drove "short" trips, anything less than 20 minutes at highway speed.  Maybe folks in the desert experienced longer life.  But prior to the current system on my SL (and the stocking stuffer routine), I must have put four systems on that car in 14 years.

I loved the sound of the Abarth systems!  Had one on my 2002.  I also had a friend with a 1971 280SL (who has passed away sadly) with a Supersprint.  It was quite a bit louder than stock if I remember correctly.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[n/a]

I just received the quote for the Original Exhaust system from Mercedes: $862.00, which includes the header pipe, central muffler, pipes to rear muffler, rear muffler (no hanging parts or chrome tips).
How does this price seem, compared to the alternatives? High or OK?

[Cees Klumper]

That price sounds right.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[n/a]

I finally received my muffler from M/B. It had a star symbol, so evidently they are either still making them, or they are still in stock. It also had an insignia of another German manufacturer, something like Varta??
The complete price was approx. $862, and it sounds great, not too soft, but not too loud either. Lets see how ling it lasts in S. Calif.
Just wanted to let you know they are still available.

[Mike Hughes]

How olng did it take you to install it and were there any fit issues?  Any tips you can pass along for the good and welfare?

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[n/a]

Mike,
I had a specialty muffler shop install it. For $150 it was well worth it. They told me it fit just fine, although they hgad to change all gaskets, bolts and hangers. Most of it was welded though.

[babarsheikh]

Since I am looking to get my exhaust systm replaced,I got a quote from the dealer for the parts you listed and it came out to alot more than $862 even with a sizeble discount.  I realize that this was over a year ago but was wondering if you could send me the breakdown of the costs of the parts?  Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by SD280SL

I just received the quote for the Original Exhaust system from Mercedes: $862.00, which includes the header pipe, central muffler, pipes to rear muffler, rear muffler (no hanging parts or chrome tips).
How does this price seem, compared to the alternatives? High or OK?

[rwmastel]

Don't be afraid to check other suppliers:
http://www.sl113.org/data/show_table.asp?table_name=usr_parts_and_service_suppliers

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420