Author Topic: New Member....Confused...Part II  (Read 9626 times)

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New Member....Confused...Part II
« on: July 30, 2003, 13:27:38 »
Thank you all for your comments regarding the comparison between the 1969 280 SL (One-owner, 32,000mi) and the 1970 280 SL (56,000 mi, dealer, nice looking).

The problem is that both cars have no records. The first was owned by a MB mechanic who did all the work on the car himself. The second was bought by a dealer at an auction with no records at all.

The first car can be found seen at the following URL:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2421700194

The second car is still listed on E-Bay, and can be seen at:http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2424888124&category=6338

Once again I would appreciate any advice regarding the comparison between the two cars. I hate to make any rush decision that I would be sorry about.

Many Thanks
Mohannad Khatib
Dubai - UAE

Cees Klumper

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2003, 13:52:38 »
I just looked at both listings. The prices are higher than you wrote, but I assume you have better info from the sellers.
The '69 one looks like it has MB-tex rather than leather, but I could be mistaken. It looks ok,  but without records I would not count on the mileage being correct. Does the seller have any proof of the mileage? Can you talk to the original owner? This would tell you a lot. Maybe it's my suspicious nature, but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be "impossible" to interview the original owner.
Of the black one all we're shown is photos of a what looks to be a very fresh paint job. And this is always a red flag - rust can come back through a fresh paint job in just a month or two.

If I were you I would spend a little bit more time to check out other candidates. The Star lists plenty of what is described as at least as nice a cars as these two, at prices that are at least as good, or better, than these. And price is not really the most important factor; condition however IS. You can spend another $10,000 on all kinds of trouble within a year from buying a car that looked to be $2,500 cheaper than the next one (ask me how I know ;-)

If I have to state a preference anyway, I would definitely check out the beige/white '69 one and I would not put much energy into the "triple-black" one. That's my two cents...
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

rwmastel

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2003, 14:31:29 »
Personally, I would not buy an expensive item like a car from eBay unless it was a local item that I could inspect myself.  I just don't trust people.  If you have a person that you personally know and trust who can examine these vehicles, then maybe you should trust them to evaluate the cars.

That being said:

The black one has a light colored dash, so the car has been repainted to a different color.  It's spare tire looks to be lying flat on the trunk floor, not mounted on the spare tire mount.  The horizontal trunk seam between the end of the trunk and the body does not have a consistent gap, it narrows on the passenger side.  The gas cap is not the original key-locking kind, it just twists off.  The convertible top release handle is mounted upside down, it should point down.

The beige one has a pin stripe, don't know if you personally appreciate that or not.  The profile shot shows the bumper ends are not horizontal to the ground indicating something is bent, bumper mounts or body.  It appears to have the all-red tail lenses which I don't believe are original to this car, but may be a benefit.  Were they changed because of personal preference or because of body damage?  The front bumper guards are tilted back A LOT, more bent parts?  The front view shows the passenger headlight tilting more than the driver headlight, poor body repair?  The convertible top is not latched down in the back, poor adjustment or a serious problem?

Thats what I get out of the photos.

Rodd
1966 230SL Euro
1994 E420
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Tom

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2003, 15:23:33 »
Mo,

I assumed that the one owner car had records.  I can understand if the maintenance records are weak, as most mechanics working on their own car will not keep a journal of what work was done.  However, there should be a data card, original ownership records, etc.  If not, I would question the "one owner" claim.

A good inspection will uncover alot.  I would insist on compression and leak down testing and look for smoke upon acceleration.  There are so many things to look for, so use an experienced inspection firm.

Remember that these are not the only 2 cars on the market today.  At any given point, there are hundreds of these cars on the market, so be patient and you will find the right car. Good luck with your purchase.

Best,

Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic

dwilli3038

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2003, 17:22:19 »
I agree with Cees on looking for other cars. These milages are quite low, and it is very suspicious that there are no records. Unless there was some way to varify the milage I would be concerned. Insist on verification of the milage or consider it having rolled over at least once. Also consider that one is in St Louis and one in NY so salt corosion is a potential issue with either. Only after milage verification and a thourough inspection would I consider either. You can spend $10K less if you are willing to deal with the issues that may be presnt in these.


Daryl
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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2003, 18:47:14 »
Thank you all very much for the valuable comments. I guess you're right, I shuold be a bit more patient (another year or so!).
I have checked with the broker for the 69 SL (32,000 mi). he told me that I can't talk to the owner (too busy!).
Rodd thanks for pointing details in the pictures that makes a lot of sense.
Cees, what is the Star list?
What are other sources on the net for purchasing these cars?

Thanks
Mohannad
and the search goes on....



quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper

I just looked at both listings. The prices are higher than you wrote, but I assume you have better info from the sellers.
The '69 one looks like it has MB-tex rather than leather, but I could be mistaken. It looks ok,  but without records I would not count on the mileage being correct. Does the seller have any proof of the mileage? Can you talk to the original owner? This would tell you a lot. Maybe it's my suspicious nature, but I would not be surprised if it turns out to be "impossible" to interview the original owner.
Of the black one all we're shown is photos of a what looks to be a very fresh paint job. And this is always a red flag - rust can come back through a fresh paint job in just a month or two.

If I were you I would spend a little bit more time to check out other candidates. The Star lists plenty of what is described as at least as nice a cars as these two, at prices that are at least as good, or better, than these. And price is not really the most important factor; condition however IS. You can spend another $10,000 on all kinds of trouble within a year from buying a car that looked to be $2,500 cheaper than the next one (ask me how I know ;-)

If I have to state a preference anyway, I would definitely check out the beige/white '69 one and I would not put much energy into the "triple-black" one. That's my two cents...


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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2003, 20:01:27 »
I would suggest you check with the Better Business Business Bureau in St. Louis.  The local newspaper had a rather scary article about many problems with this dealer.  You can also check Pagoda113.com for an enrty July 1 about this dealer.  I live in St. Louis and I would never buy a car from him.  This is just my opinion but just be careful.

Longtooth

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2003, 01:58:20 »
Mo, some observations and comments for what they're worth.

1st, I posted earlier about a preference for the '69 one owner car... I wrongly assumed you were purchasing direct from the original owner so that their records were available...

I also wrongly assumed you had direct access to the vehicle... so could test drive, have it checked by an independant mechanic familiar with the SL's of this era.... see fine details, check numbers, etc.

What I now see is that the '69 is being sold by an agent, no access to the original owner, no records, no up-front and personal inspection.  Basically you would be buying the car sight unseen so to speak... your whole faith and trust in the marketing methods of the agent.  

That said, I'll comment on the observations I made from the photos.

1) I doubt there are only 32K miles on this vehicle... I'd say more likely 132K... the odometer on it's second round.  I make this assertion because the state of the engine compartment isn't as clean and well cared for as I would think would be the case for a MB mechanic original owner.  It's in about the same shape as mine was with 116K original miles.... serviced and cared for faithfully and regularly from '68 to '84 by the same MB mechanic... all service records available for that entire period... both from the owner's records and from the mechanic's office records.

That isn't to say there's anything wrong with the engine or it's details... but I'd guess there are 132K miles on it rather than 32K.  A complete long block rebuild (Metric motors in LA) would cost on the order of $4K + up to $6K for accessories rebuilt or reconditioned/replaced, injection system re-done as necessary, all labor (remove, re-install, etc) taken care of, so it gives you some perspective on costs in US west coast prices if you needed to put the engine mechanicals in good / excellent shape and the 'original' owner mechanic didn't really do all that this might imply.  Notice there's no statement that the mechanic religiously maintained this engine, and the appearance of it gives one reason to suspect it may not have been given any more care than a regular owner might have given it.

2) I don't think the soft-top not being latched in the back is significant or relevant... the picture takers just put it up to take the pics with the soft-top up in my opinion.  They may not have been comfortable with the extra 'slam' the tight fitting soft-top needs to get the rear to lock down.... and the fit's tight ---- see the sway between the supporting bars.  It's not new though as evidensed by the rear window, so it's been down (in the boot) since the canvas isn't faded or worn... or maybe the sun's not as damaging as it is in my state (CA).

3) I don't see the significant left to right gap difference in the rear hood to body gap.... there may be a slight differnce but it could as easily be due to the rubber bumper missing on the rear hood on one side as an artifact of the photo itself... shadow at edges.  Unless the sun was shining exactly in-line with the length of the car any subtle or possible appearance of a difference in the appearance of the gap is probably an artifact of the light's orientation with respect to the car.. that aside though, without personal inspection anything's possible.

3) No hard-top shown!  Based on the lack of sun damage fading to the soft-top, the car apparently had the hard-top on it more often than not.  This may not be in as good appearance as the rest of the repainted car.

4) The observation of the right (passanger side) headlight's cant (camber) is extreme... as observed also by Rodd.  Something's definitely out of whack, so indications are that the passanger side front fender's been replaced / repaired by a less than competant body repair shop.  The extent of prior damage/repairs beyond that can't be ascertained by the photos... need for compentant 1st hand inspection.

5) I'm uncomfortable with the all red pre-'68 (230, 250) tail lights on a '69 280.  They appear to be in almost perfect condition... worth ~$500 each if really the original one-piece (chrome & red plastic) tail lights in the kind of condition they appear to be in.  I question the integrety of the mechanic owner if he swapped the original and easily replaced two piece two tone tail lights of the 280SL with the much more difficult to obtain and expensive pre-'68 variety.  Why replace the originals on the '69 in the 1st place... faded, cracked? rear-ended? Again, you could only assess the real reasons with a personal inspection and talk with the owner.

6) Noticed 2 things on the boot cover... the corner wrinkles in the vinyl/leather, and the retainer's line under the vinyl/leather .... both of which give me cause for concern that this has been redone but not with much attention to detail... another reason why I'm skeptical of the degree of care given the car by the MB 'mechanic' owner... or perhaps this was quickly redone by the 'agent'.  

7) A NY car's underbody has got to be a critical aspect of the state of the car.... completely free of rust?  I don't think so, at least not from original parts.  I live in CA... San Jose, so not near coastal salt or inclement weather, in very low humidity climate, no salt on snow, or the like.  You can keep the car garaged and ventilated, but you'll get some rust tarnish here and there, and especially on the exhaust even here over 10 years time... much less 30 years.  

I'm therefore actually thinking that much of what's visible in pic's may have been done to give the car a nice look by the 'agent'... but I think the 'agent' is the owner trying to turn a quick profit with some fluff maneuvers to the uninformed buyer.  Go to www.carfax.com with the vin and look up it's ownership history... state inspection milages and dates, etc.... there are public records on the car to check against if you have the NY VIN (note that the VIN of record may not be the entire chassis number... but will include the last numeric section at least).

Bottom line is a personal inspection by an experienced SL owner or mechanic is required for an outlay of $20K+ for this car.  Too many things pics don't show, and even the pics provided already show some things to be wary of....

But the kicker to me is that to buy a 1 owner '69 SL from an 'agent' for the owner with whom you aren't allowed to make contact is a red flag.  Especially considering the claim that it was owned by an experienced MB mechanic.. one would have to be daft to think the guy wasn't interested in exclaiming the virtues of his care and feeding of his classic car to the next owner.

My point is I've never known a long time owner who took care of their SL's to NOT want to show the car off to the prospective buyers.  So you have to question the implied degree & type of care by the owner MB mechanic when you're unable to discuss the car with them, obtain any available records or receipts from them, etc.

What you pay for an SL has to do with what you want to do with it, how long you intend on keeping it, and the degree or amount of money you want to spend on restoration details and whether you're willing to put more $ into it than it's market value at any given point in time with what you've put into it.






Longtooth
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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2003, 04:34:29 »
Longtooth,

These are much appreciated and very useful pieces of information. I truly am thankful. There are so many little details that you can tell from the pictures that I wasn't aware of, let alone a professional inspection.

I finally managed to talk to the "owner" last night. He takled for about 5 minutes then he put his son on the phone. He claims that he doesn't have a place for the car anymore as he just acquiered a Gullwing that he's busy with. He still claimed that the car has 32,000 original miles and all panels are original.
As for the hardtop and the original wheels, they are there and supposedly in a good shape.
I too have noticed that the engine compartment is not very tiday with oil stains all over the place. I too were wondering about this MB mechanic.

I made one other interesting discovery. The car was never titled or registered since 1971! In other words, no ownership papers. He claims that he has Dealer Plates that he uses on many of his other cars.

Again thanks much for the great comments.
Mohannad


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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2003, 04:39:27 »
CML55,

I was noticing that this dealer lists a dufferent pagoda every week or two. All of them look nice, but no one is bidding! He also has a few other classics listed for sale.

The Black 280 SL was originally listed for $34k (after discount)!. I managed to bring him down to $26.5 without a lot of effort.

Thanks for your warning, I guess you know better since you live in that neighborhood.
Mohannad

quote:
Originally posted by cml55

I would suggest you check with the Better Business Business Bureau in St. Louis.  The local newspaper had a rather scary article about many problems with this dealer.  You can also check Pagoda113.com for an enrty July 1 about this dealer.  I live in St. Louis and I would never buy a car from him.  This is just my opinion but just be careful.


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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2003, 10:25:15 »
Mohannad

I must agree with cml55. I also live in St. Louis and that dealer has a terible reputation. Many unhappy customers. I would suggest that you exersize extreme caution when dealing with them.
 

Please be careful! There are plenty of other reputable dealers that specailize in Pagodas.

Albert-230SL

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2003, 11:54:13 »
quote:
Originally posted by Longtooth

Mo, some observations and comments for what they're worth...

5) I'm uncomfortable with the all red pre-'68 (230, 250) tail lights on a '69 280.  They appear to be in almost perfect condition... worth ~$500 each if really the original one-piece (chrome & red plastic) tail lights in the kind of condition they appear to be in.  I question the integrety of the mechanic owner if he swapped the original and easily replaced two piece two tone tail lights of the 280SL with the much more difficult to obtain and expensive pre-'68 variety.  Why replace the originals on the '69 in the 1st place... faded, cracked? rear-ended?
...

Go to www.carfax.com with the vin and look up it's ownership history... state inspection milages and dates, etc....

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500

Hi Longtooth,

Just two comments about your also "Long" observations  ;) :

1- About the tail lights. If the VIN of the beige car (which appears in the e-bay ad) is correct -113044 12 005957-, it was made in October '68 (according to the "Databases" section of our home page  http://www.sl113.org/data/prod_month.asp ). And, according to MB, all 280 SL up to VIN 007937 had this early style of tail lights, so they may be the original or correct tail lights for that car.

2- I went to www.carfax.com, but there's a text: "The CARFAX database contains information for cars manufactured from 1981 through the present", so it doesn't work for Pagodas...

That said, I'm afraid I won't post here again a picture of my "Pago" (or just a very small picture)... because there are some people here (as you and Rodd) very dangerous: you could "riddle with bullets"  :?  my modest 230 SL after one of your pictures examinations!  :)

Best regards,

Download Attachment: 280 SL tail lights.jpg
32.01 KB

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432
« Last Edit: July 31, 2003, 12:46:28 by Albert-230SL »

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2003, 05:36:27 »
Mo,
I would advise against purchasing a car that I had not either personally inspected or had inspected by someone that I trusted as knowledgable and detail oriented. Remeber, brokers just want to make a sale and owners can often view their cars through rose colored glasses. You need to see for yourself. Also, cars ALWAYS look better in pictures than in person.
You need to decide whether originality is important to you, or do you want the car customized to your tastes. If originality is important than you need to do some homework to learn about items such as trim codes/paint code/VIN numbers/build numbers/etc., so that you can decern originality.
I personally prefer a car that is original, unrestored versus a vehicle that has been restored to an unknown standard. You can pay price for restoration work done to a poor standard.
Since you are in the UAE, when you find a prospective purchase seek out someone to inspect the car. I would try to do this through this group and the MBCA.
You can spend a mountian of money on a Pagoda (personal experience), and parts and knowledgable mechanics will be hard to find in Dubai.
I looked for almost 2 years before I found my car. I found what I was looking for, then spent an additional (unexpected) $4k on little bits such as subframe mounts, cooling system repairs, fuel system repairs, fixing fluid leaks, replacing rubber, etc.
Be knowledgable (or find someone who is that can help you), decide what you want, check out prospective cars carefully and do not be in a hurry to buy.
Good luck.

Regards,
Stan

Cees Klumper

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2003, 14:24:22 »
If I would do my purchase all over, I would look for a car that has been totally restored to the highest standard, not too long (3-5 years) ago. This car will be expensive (up to $50,000), but this is actually half of what the owner had to pay to get it to that stage if he had the work done by a proper shop. Because that is what a full restore costs - around $80,000 on top of the cost of the car itself if the work is done properly, by experts.
Of course, spending $50,000 will only deliver dividends to you if you plan to keep the car, maybe, 20 years or more. During that time, you will be smiling all the way to the bank, because you will only have to do the smallest bits of maintenance (depending on how much you drive of course). While if you buy a $25,000 car, you will (1) either end up spending another $50,000 extra over the next 20 years to slowly do all of those things that the other guy had all done at once (this is a kind of "happy-payment-plan"), (2) keep the car going on a shoestring, and never have it looking nearly as nice as it could, or (3) get tired of all those expenses and time spent in the shop, and sell off the car to the next enthusiast...
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Longtooth

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Re: New Member....Confused...Part II
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2003, 04:51:29 »
Albert & Mo

My apologies about the all-red tail-lights on the '69 SL not being originals for the model year indicated ('69).  Albert is correct that the production date in Sindlefingen was Oct '68, so all-red taillights may indeed be originals.  However, the model year & features and production month/date aren't the same thing, so I erroneosly applied the stated model year of the '69 to the year of production (Jan '69 Chassis numbers commenced with 007772) ... hence the error on my part.  

Albert, as for my scrutiny of the state of perfection or lack thereof on the classics, don't be cowed by observations of variances or details that are sub-perfection or the fact that most driven Pagoda's aren't in show-room condition in some form or another.  Mo asked for comments on his prospective purchases... I may have wrongly assumed he wanted to know what may or may not be 'correct' or indicative of the degree of care and feeding --- I was curious about the condition of the car when Mo posted the URL for the marketing pics and spent some time looking at those aspects of the car that caught my attention...

FYI, my own 250SL is not perfect either.... and may never be since my interest is in driving and using it, not trucking it to shows for trophies. Of course I like to put things right when I can and $$ are allocated to it... and yes, I'm a purist, for my own SL (but as I've said to the Malta Red owner... I will deviate from purist state for slight modifications to original colors (and for Malta's unique Red on any SL... regardless of it's original color) and I certainly appreciate the non-original features applied by others to their classics... it's a matter of personal taste and ultimate objective of ownership... not judgements (unless you're competing for Best of Show).

BTW, you're right about one thing for sure... I shouldn't be making judgements of other's SL's... whether posts are requesting them or not.... for obvious reasons... I may not be right, and there's bound to be somebody who takes offense.

And Mo... my opinion still stands... you can't tell the condition of the car without an upclose and personal inspection by an experienced MB SL era mechanic and expert.  ... but everything can be put right if it hasn't been in a serious accident and isn't rusted thru-&-thru... it's only a matter of time and money.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
95 SL500