230SL VS. 280SL

[miltnme]

hello friends,

i need some assistance, i have been looking at  a 1966 230sl (auto) in very good condition, no rust at all, partial restoration, bare metal respray, 134000 miles, california car, asking price $36K (alot of dough, i think)

what are the differnces from a 230sl and 280sl

this car has power steering, factory A/C, after market seat belts (230sl did not come with them, i think)

thanks in advance for the feedback.
jonathan

[Douglas]

Silver Star does a nice job of summarizing the differences:

http://silverstarrestorations.com/113SL.htm

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[AGT]

Jonathan

I bought a 1969 280 auto (not the best I could afford) and then a 1966 230 manual in much better condition. I really enjoy both cars and buying one of each and is the obvious solution to the 230 v. 280 dilemma.

I can't give you a technical analysis of the differences between the two cars but for me the 280 is much faster and has better brakes (except on the first push). The 230 has classier interior details, the manual gearbox is great and if I had to sell one it is the 230 which I would keep.

In the end I would not agonise over the choice amongst 230/250/280; its all about finding the best car and at $36,000 it would have to be very, very good.

Good luck and keep hunting.

Regards
Andrew

[miltnme]

hello friends

forgot to mention a few other things about this 230sl, i am not looking for a show car, but  a TURN KEY car, i do not want a project car in anyway whatsoever, this would be a weekend driver for me and my wife or for driving around town.

i am not considering buying a pagoda to sell it, its a car that my wife and i have always wanted, we have been searching for approx. 1 year now and have seen LOTs of pagodas, this one is the best so far, but it seems like a lot of money for a 230sl, it seems like the 280sl's are more collectible and really hold their value.

the owner of this car is the 3rd, he bought it in LA 10 years ago for $15Kand has put approx. $30K into it, i have seen all the photos of the restoration work and all the receipts.

anyway, thats my bit for now.

many thanks
jonathan

p.s. douglas, thank you, i will checkout silverstar

[AGT]

Jonathan

If you have searched for a year and it is the best car that you have seen then....

I don't understand why 280s are worth more than 230s. One possibility is that 230s don't always come with the sought after spec of auto, PAS and air con and the one that you are looking at does.

If you don't want to use the car to cross a continent then the extra speed of a 280 may not be important and, in deference to the how fast do you drive your Pagoda thread, when I get to about 80 mph I begin to think no ABS, no airbag, no roll hoop etc - and slow down a bit.

A good 230 will bring you great happiness.

Can you post some pictures of your target car?

Regards
Andrew

[J. Huber]

Hey Jonathan. I agree with AGT that for 36K this 230SL would (for me anyway) have to be in excellent condition all the way around. Over the years, I have read that "generally speaking" 230SLs command a lower price than 280s -- I only mention that to hammer home that 36 is up there.

Having said that, it could be just right for you. Have you seen it up close? driven it? Does the color and the chrome make you kind of tingly? If you have and it "feels" like about the greatest, most fun little car you've ever been near -- it's may be the one. If you start seeing things that need to be improved or replaced, then I'd be a little cautious.

The differnces between the various models has been discussed here - ad naseum. They all have merits (although 230SLs are the best!   )





James
63 230SL

[miltnme]

hello friends

yes, i have seen the car, and driven the car and she is a beauty, i don't have any photos in my possession as of yet, i am going with one of my pals from the forum to look at it again tomorrow and check out a few things,

i would not pay the $36K asking, there are a few minor items that need doing, however saying that i know how much minor items add up to.  i have not ever seen a 230sl for this much money, i have seen alot of 280sl's for over $35K

there is still no hurry for me to buy this car, however, its so great to have you guys to bounce this stuff off of.  sometimes i feel like i am losing my mind over these cars and all that there is to know about them, i guess i am somewhat afraid to make a big financial mistake, if i am willing to spend $35K would i be better off trying to keep searching for a 280sl./

thank you
jonathan

[J. Huber]

Hey Jonathan. I understand your trepidation. That is a lot of darn money for a used car! Yikes. Easy for me to throw out opinions... You could buy 2 or 3 of my car for that much... Yet here I continue. As to your question about 35 better put towards a 280, thats a tough one. One thing I'd keep in mind is -- there will be things that come up after ownership that will cost money. I only say this because there comes a point when buying something (house, car, washing machine) that we start to think "At this price, I better not have to pay anything for a long time..." That's a nice hope but there's no guarantee. Lots of folks see their cars as investments -- I don't necessarily disagree -- whether they are good ones or not depends on a lot of things.

James
63 230SL

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by miltnme

what are the differnces from a 230sl and 280sl

jonathan,

Did the link provided by Douglas answer your original question?  If not, what types of differences are you looking for?  You know this group can get really detailed!  

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[KevinC]

I agree 100% with James. Jonathan, your line "i do not want a project car in anyway whatsoever" is a little scary. My car celebrates its 40th birthday this month and even though it has never left me stranded, I expect that it will someday. None the less, I try to stay ahead of any maintenance issues by having my mechanic give it a "once over" for a $60 investment about every quarter or so...it gets a test drive, an oil chage and a check-up on the lift and I get a little more piece of mind.

As far as values, obviously the 280 SL's were the later cars so in some respects, had more "desirable" updates like rear disc brakes and such. When it comes down to brass tax, though I believe its more about the individual vehicle and how it was maintained than it is the year or model. I started out seeking a darker metallic-colored 280 SL and look what I ended up with. Dollar for dollar however, this specific car was the best choice out of the nine I looked at and the "oldest" one of the bunch! Like, me, if you've looked at quite a few you will know the one that is right when you see it.

quote:Originally posted by J. Huber

Hey Jonathan. I understand your trepidation. That is a lot of darn money for a used car! Yikes. Easy for me to throw out opinions... You could buy 2 or 3 of my car for that much... Yet here I continue. As to your question about 35 better put towards a 280, thats a tough one. One thing I'd keep in mind is -- there will be things that come up after ownership that will cost money. I only say this because there comes a point when buying something (house, car, washing machine) that we start to think "At this price, I better not have to pay anything for a long time..." That's a nice hope but there's no guarantee. Lots of folks see their cars as investments -- I don't necessarily disagree -- whether they are good ones or not depends on a lot of things.

James
63 230SL

Kevin Caputo
Boca Raton, FL
1967 230 SL Automatic
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex

[miltnme]

hi friends

kevin, thank you and everyone else for your great feedback, as far as a "project car" i just mean not something that needs to be put back together, as i am not mechanically inclined with these cars, i know plently of guys who love to have a project car to always tinker on (thats not me nor my wife for that matter)  i have a great mechanic in northern california that works on my other mercedes cars, and of course i'd have him check it out every couple of months or so, just to keep up with the regular maintenance. :oops:

we'll keep you all posted!  many thanks again! jonathan

[hands_aus]

quote:Originally posted by miltnme

hi friends

kevin, thank you and everyone else for your great feedback, as far as a "project car" i just mean not something that needs to be put back together, as i am not mechanically inclined with these cars, i know plently of guys who love to have a project car to always tinker on (thats not me nor my wife for that matter)  i have a great mechanic in northern california that works on my other mercedes cars, and of course i'd have him check it out every couple of months or so, just to keep up with the regular maintenance. :oops:

we'll keep you all posted!  many thanks again! jonathan

Have you considered an early 250SL?

They were the fore runner to the 280SL.
This model introduced the new additions like 4 wheel disc brakes, 82 litre fuel tank, 7 bearing crank shaft etc but the model retained the interior chrome of the 230SL.

These were some of the considerations I wrestled with when I was looking for a Pagoda.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[69280sl]

Hi Jonathan:
To add my 2 cents worth. I know you have taken seriously the advice to buy the best car you can afford, and I know that is what you are trying to do. But, regardless of how good a car you buy - in the normal price range- prepare yourself emotionally and financially for ongoing maintenance and expensive repairs. These are (in my opinion), complicated cars, that are now 35 - 43 years old.

As for model, altho there is no premium at this time I echo Bob Smiths recommendation, for a 250sl because of the comparative rarity, also it combines many of the best features of the 230 and the 280, and isn't encumbered with the later required polution control and safety features.  I doubt you will discern and lack of performance compared to the 280.

Gus
Signal red/beige, 280sl

[69280sl]

quote:Originally posted by 69280sl

Hi Jonathan:
To add my 2 cents worth. I know you have taken seriously the advice to buy the best car you can afford, and I know that is what you are trying to do. But, regardless of how good a car you buy - in the normal price range- prepare yourself emotionally and financially for ongoing maintenance and expensive repairs. These are (in my opinion), complicated cars, that are now 35 - 43 years old.

As for model, altho there is no premium at this time I echo Bob Smiths recommendation, for a 250sl because of the comparative rarity. Also it combines many of the best features of the 230 and the 280, and isn't encumbered with the later required pollution control and safety features.  I doubt you will discern and lack of performance compared to the 280.

Gus
Signal red/beige, 280sl

inspectorgm

68 280sl, signal red/ beige/black softtop

[69280sl]

quote:Originally posted by 69280sl

Originally posted by 69280sl

Hi Jonathan:
To add my 2 cents worth. I know you have taken seriously the advice to buy the best car you can afford, and I know that is what you are trying to do. But, regardless of how good a car you buy - in the normal price range- prepare yourself emotionally and financially for ongoing maintenance and expensive repairs. These are (in my opinion), complicated cars, that are now 35 - 43 years old.

As for model, altho there is no premium at this time I echo Bob Smiths recommendation, for a 250sl because of the comparative rarity. Also it combines many of the best features of the 230 and the 280, and isn't encumbered with the later required pollution control and safety features.  I doubt you will discern and lack of performance compared to the 280.

Gus
Signal red/beige, 280sl

[69280sl]

quote:Originally posted by 69280sl

Originally posted by 69280sl

Originally posted by 69280sl

Hi Jonathan:
To add my 2 cents worth. I know you have taken seriously the advice to buy the best car you can afford, and I know that is what you are trying to do. But, regardless of how good a car you buy - in the normal price range- prepare yourself emotionally and financially for ongoing maintenance and expensive repairs. These are (in my opinion), complicated cars, that are now 35 - 43 years old.

As for model, altho there is no premium at this time I echo Bob Smiths recommendation, for a 250sl because of the comparative rarity. Also it combines many of the best features of the 230 and the 280, and isn't encumbered with the later required pollution control and safety features.  I doubt you will discern any lack of performance compared to the 280.

Gus
Signal red/beige, 280sl

[miltnme]

hi friends

yes, i would be totally open to a 250sl, have only seen one, it was a manual and we want an (auto), we will keep you posted,

p.s. does anyone know if a 1966 230sl (california car) qualifies for a california black plate license?  the owner of this car i am considering says it does, just wondering?

many thanks
jonathan

[Tom230sl]

quote:Originally posted by miltnme

hi friends

yes, i would be totally open to a 250sl, have only seen one, it was a manual and we want an (auto), we will keep you posted,

p.s. does anyone know if a 1966 230sl (california car) qualifies for a california black plate license?  the owner of this car i am considering says it does, just wondering?

many thanks
jonathan

yes,  '63 thru '68 for black plates

[Amanda]

Re: qualification for black plates in California - if the car you purchase already has them, I believe you can keep/transfer them, but CA law does not yet allow you to go back to black plates if the car does not currently have them - for that your car has to be a 1962 or earlier.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5004_1.htm

Amanda
1966 230SL
Manual
Red/Tan
Los Angeles

[Longtooth]

Jonathan, I'm going to pop-in here fwiw.

IMO, $36k is a more than premium price for the 230SL as described... key words being "partially restored".  I assume there are several things left to be "restored" that you can do or have done over time and at your convenience...

... things like some of the chrome, hardtop, interior, perhaps some springs in the seats, and other functional/cosmetic items... not to mention engine and drive/train .... rebuild necessary?  short blokc or long block... water pump, oil pump, clutch, etc.  Brake rotors (front) and/or brake drums (rear)? Is the engine compartment restored?  Metal replated, parts removed repainted, new rubber or at least rubber that's still somewhat pliable and not cracked wide open?

I can only guess, but any one of these things by themselves or a composite of just a few can set you back another $5k easily...without even trying, & I'd be it'd be more like $8k - $10k of which at least half will be labor.

I know you've been looking long and hard already...you're primed to buy and worried you won't find anything better for the money anytime soon.... and procrastination is getting old and worn by now.

I can recommend an option you may not have taken up yet.  There are some restorers (pro's for the SL's of our W113 vintage) that have lines on what you want and / or can find what you want and restore to the level of 1)prudence, and 2) authenticity, and 3) do it at a price you're willing to pay.... in a reasonable time period.... say within 3-6 months depending on the level of restoration required.

Call me or drop me an e-mail (psmith has my particulars)... and no, I'm not selling mine, nor do I know anybody who has one for sale.  But I do know of a newly & in process of restoration 280SL (automatic) by a pro that you may be able to get for a price only slightly higher than the "partially" restored 230SL you're in negotiations over.  In a way we're competing... I'm stuck on looking for a restorable 280SL manual tranny, '68 or '69 tops, with ski-rack pagoda roof-trim... numbers matching, no rust, CA car.... for a price I'm willing to pay.
 
Marin Co. isn't, imo, the place to look for a reasonable value in a W113.  BTW, too bad I didn't know you were looking about a year ago.... I had a friend with an original, daughter of original purchaser 280SL auto that needed to sell it (lost her job and had to raise cash)... I would have bought it without blinking if it'd been a manual.... in great shape all around ... mechanically, cosmetically (orig. paint in fact wasn't even tarnished or faded).... soft-top wasn't up to snuff, but it wasn't ripped or torn either.... a couple of light door ding, and chrome was only slightly tarnished --- most would polish out.  I only mention this since you could have had it for ~$15k - $16k... bargain in the flesh.... then had the engine rebuilt (long block), including a lot of the normal mechanical stuff --- new clutch, brakes, etc. for under $10k (including removal, replacement, all mechanical work), new interior complete... leather, orig. grain, and softtop redone in orig. fabric, engine compartment detailed to concours level all for another $10k... chrome for another $5k for what it needed... and ended up with a completely restored one for just 10% over what you're paying for a 230SL partially restored.

   

 


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

[Longtooth]

Jonathan... though I'm partial, I agree with those that have recommended a 250SL if you can find one.  They are indeed becoming rarer than hen's teeth... especially those built before they started adding all the safety features that took the chrome out of the interior and made a lot of other changes that were used in the 280SL.... about 1st 1/2 of 250SL production was in the early 250SL catagory... all the best features of the 230SL plus almost all the best features of the 280SL's without the reduced chrome and other cost cutting features and performance reductions (for the 170 HP engine plus US DOT rules) for the US imported models.

The '67 250SL's aren't that sought after though for some reason... probably because they're neither the 230SL nor the 280SL ... so they are, in my own not so very humble opinion, currently a relative price bargain.  

Consider... 1761 (34%) 250SL's Exported to US (of 5196 produced)
Consider... Only 427 (31%) 250SL's were still registered in Germany (TUV) in mid '90 (of 1388 produced & not exported from Germany).

Consider, if you put both the above together, then in mid 1990 there were on the order of 500 - 600 250SL's still driving in US.  Consider further, that only 1/2 these were from the period before the safety and chrome changes were made to them... so 250 - 300 in mid-90.  

Consider that since mid-90 another 16 years have passed... so my guesstimate is that of the estimated 500 - 600 units in US in mid-90 another 75% would have bit the dust... leaving approx. 125 - 150 units in US now... of which ~ 1/2 are in the pre-saftey modifications period... or something on the order of under 100 such units.  

If you can find one, it's a pretty good bet they will be priced below a comparable 230SL or 280SL.  There's a few (only 3) on the ourSL site.

One's a California Roadster (i.e. no softtop, with rear 'seat'...not the 'kinder seat')... not particularly enticing, but rare.  

Another one's a late model 250SL with all the 280SL style stuff...door pockets & inside door handles, inside & outside mirrors, steering wheel horn rim, side-marker lights, dual safety brake reserviors, etc. I can see the leather on the hardtop by the side-window is cracked and peeling, but there's not a lot of other cosemtic's that are seriously wanting (from the photos).  No VIN provided though... asking ~$28k in Mississippi (maybe storm damaged?), with a Metric Motors rebuilt longblock with 1200 miles on it... not even broken in yet, imo.  Might be worth looking into further compared to a 'partially restored' 230SL for $36k.  

Another in Oregon, automatic, also late 250SL production with the 280SL cosmetics as above (-3010 VIN Chassis listed... so just after the safety and other 280SL cosmetic features were introduced with Chassis 2980) and a funny modification to the tunnel hump (so that needs to be undone and recarpeted most likely... but with the ski-rack trim on the pagoda roof, Becker radio... for sale by 2nd owner (private party)... for $20k (assuming it hasn't been grabbed up yet).  Probably needs long block rebuild... count on $10k (remove, ship to Metric, return and reinstall with all the other mechanical stuff & brakes that needs to be redone/repaired)... still under $36k you're looking at.  Hey, Oregon's close enough for a personal look-see. ... a day up, a day there, a day back.  Take / pay for a reliable SL expert to go with you.

But as I said, I'm partial.... since I own one.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

[miltnme]

good morning friends,

Longtooth, many thanks for all the great info you wrote! i take it to heart what you and everyone else say, and yes, i'd be interested in the restored 280sl (auto)

my email is
hstearn@aol.com

many thanks, jonathan :oops:

[Mike Webster]

Jonathan,

It's been my experience that all else being equal, a 230 cost's between ¨ø-¨ú the price of a 280. They cost the same to maintain/repair. That said, you would be looking at $50,000.00 for a comparable 280.

Mike in Detriot
1966 230sl
silver/red

[Mike Webster]

Let me try this again. It's been my experience that a 230 cost between 2/3 - 3/4 the price of a comparable 280.

[miltnme]

and the beat goes on, i have passed on the 230sl for $36k,  and in the end, the sellers really wanted to send it to europe to sell to  double their money.

i have learned so much just on this thread, can't thank you all enough, trust me, i'll be back with more stories of finding the right SL.

roy spencer @ oursl.com has a car i hope to see next week.

MANY THANKS!
jonathan :oops: