question about replacing shocks

[marti]

Hello everyone.  I haven't posted in a while but have been reading alot of old posts to gain more knowledge about my car.  She is running well...or as good as can be expected.  I was driving down the 55 freeway on my way to Newport Beach last week when some guy started honking and waiving persistently.  I thought, "ok..! you REALLY like my car!" ....He pulled up along sideme and shouted, "You have stuff spilling out the back of my car!" (The fuel line was busted! To add insult to injury, I went from a whole tank of gas to no gas by the time I could get off the freeway and on to an on ramp...gas in southern California is around $3.45 for the good kind.)

I have to replace the shocks on the car (1t's a very early 63 230).  I read the old post and came up with some shocks called Bilsteins(?) and someone else said something about KYB (?).  As I have mentioned in earlier posts, I am lucky I know how to put gas in my car so all work I have done must go into a shop to be done.  I thought I would check with you all to see if you could: 1) RECOMMEND A BRAND OF SHOCKS you have used, 2) ANY PARTS OR WORK I SHOULD HAVE DONE AT THE SAME TIME and 3) ANYTHING I SHOULD KNOW AHEAD OF TIME.  I love my mechanic and together with the wealth of information on this site I have been able to save money, time and enjoy my car so much more.

Thanks for all your help!

marti
63' 23sl
Black 560

[waqas]

The Bilstein's are correct OEM. However, folks here have used different ones to stiffen up the ride, etc, according to their tastes. If purchased from an authorized dealer, the Bilsteins come with a lifetime warranty (I can't speak for the other brands).

Whichever route you decide to take, make sure you shop around. From some parts suppliers, you can save over 50% as compared to buying from the dealer. For starters, you can find a list of parts suppliers on the LINKS page on this site.

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[ja17]

Hello Marti,

The Bilsteins are great shocks. The car's suspension is designed for these gas filled Bilsteins. They are a little pricey so shop arround. Prices will vary widely.
Many possible sources. Autozone is even a Bilsteind distributor these days.

Installation can be a little tricky since the shocks are fully extended from the gas pressure. Use something to hold the fronts compressed during installation. Basic tools will do the job.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[jameshoward]

Hi Marti,

I've done my shocks and whilst it's true that the car was designed with Bilsteins as standard, I understand that Bilstein have changed the design of their shocks which results in an even more spongy feel to an already quite soft ride. To put it very simply, the current shocks they make also are pressurised differently the end result being that they will push up the ride height a little.

I've replaced mine with Koni to stiffen up the ride. The job is very easy (easier than Bilstein as they are pressurised differently). See this thread - I think I've covered it here; if not let me know and I'll find it for you:

http://index.php?topic=6291

If you want some more info, let me know.

I most strongly recommend Koni classic adjustable shocks over the new Bilsteins. They are excellent, and a little cheaper. You can adjust them to soften or harden the ride as you need to.

You should also watch the Jim Villers Blacklick video that is on the home page of this site as he talks about shocks there.

James

[waqas]

When replacing the rear shocks (or whenever working with the rear swing axle), make sure your mechanic does not let the axle tubes drop suddenly after disconnecting the shocks, or even just hang there. The tubes and brake/hub assemblies weigh a lot, and the resulting force could crack the differential casing (thanks to Joe Alexander for pointing this out). The axle tubes need to be slowly lowered, and always supported by jack stands or something else.

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[mille]

We bought and installed new KYB Gas-shocks as especially the rear ones were shot and dead. We decided for the KYB shocks for three reasons: 1) We wanted the ride to be more sharp and firm to make it more of a sports car, rather than the soft and lazy feeling before and 2) KYB is Japanese (a quality mark these days, isn't' it?   ) and as far as I know the worlds largest shock manufacturer 3) They are cheaper than Bilstein and Koni. Before the rear end was sagging a bit, but after the new shocks have been installed the rear ride height was elevated by approx. 1.5 cm.

And, we have not been disappointed. The car has been transformed and drives very sharp and the ride is firmer than before without being uncomfortable. Just as we like it - but after all it is a matter of taste.

Cheers

/Finn

1964 MB 230 SL Euro 4-speed manual silver metallic with black interior

[J. Huber]

Hello Marti. How about one more opinion! I had some new Bilsteins put on a few years ago. Huge difference and the car loves them. I had the motor mounts, subframe mounts, and rear differential mount done at the same time -- just seems like doing things in a package made sense. Parts came from Ray Paul -- the work was done by a local trusted MB mechanic. Go for it.

James
63 230SL

[al_lieffring]

The Bilstein shocks that mount on a 113 chassis have the same external dimensions as the shocks that were fitted on the 108 sedans.
The 113 SL shocks had stiffer internal valving.
I checked the Bilstein web page and there is a different part numbers for shocks on the 108 and 113 cars.
It is possible that many 113 with a mushy ride may have been refitted with sedan shocks. I prefer the Bilsteins, the KYB a close second, but I don't care for the Konis, they don't have a gas charge and make a SL ride like a MGB (IMHO).

Al

66 230sl
113-042-10-014715
904/396 blue, Ivory Tex
condition: not-as-rusty-as-before-bucket

[ja17]

Hello Al,

I agree with you 100%

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[waqas]

Follow-up question: if the 113 and 108 shocks are identical (externally), can one use 113 shocks in a 108? (actually, a 111). Besides stiffening-up the ride, would there be any adverse effects?

I need to change the subframe mounts and torsion bar bushings in the 111, and I'm considering changing the shocks while I'm there...

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[harleydan]

Marti,

I have recently had a rebuild on my suspension which included Bilstein shocks all around.  The Bilsteins raised the car up by 2-3 inches in the front and by 1-2 inches in the back.  I then changed to John Olson springs which helped lower the car more to the stock clearances but still a bit too high for my taste.  I had the shocks checked for correct W113 part number twice and all was fine.  If my shocks pads are indeed the smallest pad available, I am leaning towards getting the Koni's because I hope they will lower the car to get a more aggressive stance and get better handling (vice cutting the springs which I still may have to do).  

If you (or anybody else) are so inclined to getting Bilsteis I could make you a deal on my relativley unused used shocks while I get the Koni's.   If you want a more stock, luxurious, and comfortable ride, then go for the Bilsteins; but at the risk of raising the car's height.  However, if you want a more sportier feel but at the risk of feeling the bumps more, then get the Koni's.  In addition, the Koni's do have a adjustment to change the firmness.

In addition to the other items to check as mentioned by the other readers/writers, have the kingpins checked.

It is also nice to have options, but have as much information at hand before you do choose which path.

Cheers,
Danny
1970 280SL Euro silver manual

[ja17]

Hello Danny,

The bilstiens should not raise the car above stock height. I suspect that the springs or the subframe mounts could have caused the higher level of the car.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

[jameshoward]

Joe,

Didn't Jim Villers mention in your video piece about springs, shocks and pads that Bilstein had changed their design and now it was actually possibile (probable) that new shocks would actually raise the car height? I have replaced working Bilsteins with Koni and at the same time replaced all the spring pads (effectively thicker ones since they replaced knackered perished ones) and the height dropped a fraction. This would imply that Bilsteins caused the car to be higher as - I think - Jim said. However, I agree that it may not have raised a pretty low car above stock height. I'm just yet to see an explanation of what stock height was; can you help on that one because I can't seem to find it on a search?

James

[DavidBrough]

Hi James,

I think there is only one way to measure ride height and that is via camber angle. I don’t have the exact figures with me but the rear is something like +1.5deg +/- 0.5, don’t know the front measurement. This is also dependent on stock wheels and tyres.
There is also much comment on linear measurements from the hub centre to wheel arch which removes any discrepancy with tyre size but shouldn’t be confused with obtaining the correct camber geometry. Camber measurements are taken on level ground with a full fuel tank and hardtop in situ. There is a noticeable difference in height at the back if you remove the top and have an empty fuel tank.

For me, the “at a glance” correct stance is rear wheels slightly out at the top (positive camber) and front slightly lower than the back on level ground. Anything with the front level or higher than the back or rear camber over +2.5deg looks wrong immediately.

Hope this helps.



David Brough
1969 280SL Auto

[Khurram Darugar]

I was speaking recently with well known parts dealer who lowered his car via shorter springs.  He told me that to correct the camber in the rear he used a 3/4 inch spacer under the rear subframe mount, effectively lowering the body to the differentail.  In turn this appeared to resolve his rear camber problem on his 1 inch lower springs.  In addition to the spacer a dust cover had to be fabricated to seal the raised differential mount.

I am going to give this a shot late summer and see how it goes.  Theoritically it makes sense and a spacer of this magnitude should not alter balance front/back balance noticeably.  Im pretty concerned about ride hieght and have 1 inch lower JO sports springs with new bilstiens (both waiting to go on) and rear camber is probably going to be an issue for me.  

This appears to be a creative solution i would have probably not come up with myself, i thought i would share this idea for discussion.  

Kay


Kay
Euro 280sl LHD Auto.

[waqas]

Interesting idea, Kay. The only things I can think of, albeit relatively minor, are the following:

(1) the differential "hangar" curves forward as is goes down to the differential. I don't remember the severity of this curve, but you may need to allow this to stay clear of the subframe-- although 3/4inch doesn't seem like this will be a problem.

(2) the lateral cross-strut may see some extra downward forces that may lead to premature bushing wear (there are bushings on both sides of this strut).

How do you plan to fabricate the "spacer"? This may need longer bolts for the trunk mount (you probably want to still bolt it to the subframe, through the spacer). As you can probably tell, my interest is more than passing, so do let us know how it turns out!

WAQAS in Austin, Texas

[TR]

Like Marti I am also planning to replace the shocks on my car.  Strangely enough everything (or almost everything) was replaced on my car's suspension system only a couple of thousand miles ago.  New std. springs & pads, etc ... just not the shocks.

I would appreciate guidance on the best overall shock.  Won't be driving the car especially hard.  Just as interested in comfort as in performance.  I'm confused as to whether we ought to use std. Bilstiens, or Koni Classics, or whatever.

Input appreciated.

Thanks.

Tom in Boise
'71 280SL 4-spd, signal red w/lt. tan interior, restored/enhanced

[jameshoward]

David/All,

Your post is rather depressing - for me at least! Having replced all the spring rubbers on the car and the rear shocks, my car is down at the rear, and this is despite fitting the thickest rear spring rubbers. Ray Hays is very kindly sending me a few of Jim Villers rubber gasket thingies, but I suspect that having emailed with Ray, these may not be man enough to bring up the rear. I can only assume that the front Bilsteins are keeping the front up a little, notwithstanding what Joe has said. My cars' springs are - 99% certain - original.

Separately, on the subject of camber, I must have had my head up my wotsit but presumably having changed all the spring bushes and the torsion bar bushes and rear shocks, I should have my tracking checked? Wouldn't all this work have affected the way the wheels sit? If so, can normal garages equipped with laser tracking 'devices' do our cars? Are the adjustments simple enough? Has anyone done this lately?

Any advice would be most welcome.

James

[DavidBrough]

Hi James,

Have you changed the diff hanger mounting in the boot and the compensating spring rubbers?

When I did mine, it was new comp spring rubbers that seemed to affect the ride height most but a failed diff support rubber will also have a significant effect.


David Brough
1969 280SL Auto

[Vince Canepa]

IMHO, there is no better shock for the 113 than the Bilstein B36/B46.  I recently put a new set on mine and it drives and rides exactly like it did new.  I have serious doubts about stories that Bilstein has changed their settings, that they can raise the car several inches (the entire suspension travel is only six inches or so).  After all, you can hold a Bilstein compressed without too much difficulty so how much could they actually raise the car?  In my experience, when the car doesn't sit right, something else is wrong.

On my car the car sat low in the rear when the hanger mount bushing deteriorated (the bushing at the bottom of the hanger mount).  Jim Villers and I found the rear springs sawed off on a 280SL recently - that car was sitting low at the rear.

At the front, the M-B method for checking the ride height is to measure the difference in height between the inside pivot of the lower control arm and the outside pivot (a method they use to this day).  If this delta is correct, M-B assumes the car will sit correctly.  It should be noted that some aftermarket suppliers sell the wrong front subframe mounts for the 113 and this can raise the car at the front.

As for improving the handling or better "sports car feel" I am of the opinion that there are other issues that cannot be fixed by making the springs or shocks stiffer.  There is no anti-dive geometry in the suspension.  The suspension units (the front subframe and rear axle assembly) are mounted on large rubber bushings that allow things to move around quite a bit.  There is a substantial front weight bias combined with a swing axle at the rear.  The way I see it the best approach is to check everything (bushings, mounts, springs - including counting the coils and measuring the length) and make sure everything is in spec.  Then learn how to "drive around" the car's negatives.  It is just like owning an older Porsche.  You can have a blast if you work with the car rather than trying to change it.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Khurram Darugar]

Does anyone have a picture of a pagoda with new springs and shocks, using the shortest available rubber pads.  Ive seen a bunch of cars with various ride hieghts.  Trouble is without knowing the pad thickness and the age of the suspension its difficult to ascertain the minimum ride hieght that is achievable with a new stock setup.  Following this post i am even more confused, adding to this dilemma i may want to use 15inch bundt cakes, i have no idea what to expect.  Any pictures would be helpful
Many Thanks
Kay
Waqas I'll keep you posted offline.


Kay
Euro 280sl LHD Auto.

[jameshoward]

Vince,

My car is sitting low in the rear. I take your point about the Bilsteins and likelihood that they can really lift the car (I still have them in the front). You mentioned that you changed the bushing at the bottom of the hanger mount. I've looked on the SLS page and can't see which one you mean (I have a 66 230SL, manual). I know there is one in the trunk, I intend to look at that tomorrow. I understand that this one isn't too hard to change. Where is the other, and can you tell me if it's a hard job or an easy job? I am pretty desperate to find out why my car is sitting low in the rear and perhaps this will help?!

James

[Vince Canepa]

James - The bushing is at the bottom end of the hanger bracket.  The bushing in the trunk is at the top end of the hanger bracket.  It is very hard to assess the lower bushing visually and it is very hard to change.  Either 1)the right side axle tube must be removed 2)the entire axle must be removed or, for the more skilled, 3)the driveshaft disconnected, the differential front seal holder removed, the pivot pin drifted back part way, etc.

I would certainly check the upper mount in the trunk because it can also have an effect. I also see you are in Germany - anecdotal evidence tells me that some Europeans cut a coil or so off the rear springs to de-camber the rear.  De-cambering the rear is an old trick on swing axle cars to delay the rear jacking effect that occurs when braking into a corner (the rear lifts, the outside axle tries to tuck in, the rear of the car rises, the process gets worse as more jacking occurs and then you spin).  Have your rear springs been checked for the correct number of coils, the length and the wire size?

I would also have the front lower control arm position checked and make sure the correct front subframe mounts are installed.


Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex