How important is documentation?

[jesperw]

Hi Everyone,

My name is Jesper and I am a carlover from Sweden. I am currently thinking of swapping my Jag XJS softtop in favour of a 250SL -68.

I have found a good example, but with absolutely NO documentation except for some records from the swedish equivalent of MOT or TUV.

Personally, I do not have problem with the lack of docs since it is a sound example but how important are docs?

Can anyone give me an indication of how much I should negotiate in comparison with an example with full docs.

If you cannot answer about the pricedifference, let me ask like this: would you buy a car without docs?

All thoughts and input is appreciated!

Thanks in advance!

Kind Regards,


Jesper

It is nice to be important, but more important to be nice.

[Kenneth Gear]

I am not sure how much a premium should be paid for a car with documentation versus one without but my sense is that it isn't very much.  If it is a major show/concours car they would be very good to have but for a driver or weekend car, I don't think they are a must-have.

The car's condition is much more important to me.  



Ken G
1971 280 SL Silver/red
1969 BMW 2800 (sedan)

[Kemal]

Hi Jesper
Welcome, you have come to the right place regarding Pagodas.
Personally I would be very keen on documentation for any car, however seeing the car is the number one priority. [ We would love to see it ] ('[:p]')
Why don't you put some pictures of the Pagoda on this site for all to comment !(' ')
Regards
Kemal

PS: Interesting pictures on your website .(' ')

280 SL Manual 69

[john collins]

Hi Jesper,
I agree that the car is the most important thing (you will not be driving the paperwork around town).  Once the car is registered and insured, the paperwork hides in a file anyway - just make sure the car is solid, and change every fluid/filter, and grease anything that moves.
I have seen some incredibly insightful comments from the membership when photos have been offered for comments.  You would do well to take advantage of this opportunity and post some here.
John

[Douglas]

quote:Originally posted by jesperw

If you cannot answer about the pricedifference, let me ask like this: would you buy a car without docs?

Jesper,

So long as I was confident of the car (with the body being paramount), I would most definitely buy a car without documentation.

I would caution you to make sure you know where to examine the body for signs of rust or accident damage. Obviously, I would also want to be completely comfortable that the car was legitimate in a legal sense (i.e., clear title).

Also, keep in mind all is not necessarily lost in the paper trail. You may yet be able to trace the car's history by talking to its previous owner. Is the owner able to tell you from whom he purchased it? If not, there may also be local enthusiasts who know the car, perhaps even someone in this forum. I've found that Pagoda people generally have fond memories of their previous cars and are happy to talk/share information.

Good luck & let us know how you make out.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[Eryck]

Unless it's a car that has only been owned by a couple of owners, I wouldn't worry about it. I bought my car without any documentation and I think it's kinda hard to expect that all the documentation are still in place after 40 or some years!  You'd be lucky it all the original parts are still on the car!  Happy hunting.

1965 230 SL White Manual
Hong Kong

[jesperw]

Hi Everyone and a great thanks for all replies!

The car was sold in Phoenix (AZ) and imported to Sweden in 1989 by a gentleman who passed away in 1995. Car is now for sale by the widow. Therefore I cannot talk to previous owner and get history, and the widow has nothing except registration and tax papers.

She is the legitimate owner and checks out OK after brief investigation, so I am not worried about any legal implications.

Car needs new exhaust system and automatic gearbox is leaking. Could be better if car is driven, but I am calculating with a renovation of the gearbox as well. For those of you interested, you can find som pictures of the car here: http://wirden.com/pagoda/

Once again, I appreciate all input and advice!

Rgds

Jesper

It is nice to be important, but more important to be nice.

[France]

Hi Guys,

I bought my Carling on eBay (the dreaded transaction!). I talked to her owner on the phone, and he told me she had originally been owned by a man in Texas, then sold to a dealer, who sold it to my seller.  The only docs were the extensive $$ my seller had put into her.  

I agree with the sentiments expressed below--as long as you trust the car physically, docs are icing on the cake.

But why get rid of an XJS??  I'm keeping my Pounce forever!

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

[jesperw]

I would not mind keeping the XJS based on feeling only. At the moment I can only afford 2 cars, both when it comes to money and garage space.

The Pagoda is a nicer drive with hardtop and 4-speed automatic, compared to softtop and 3-speed automatic (!!)in the XJS Convertible.

It is nice to be important, but more important to be nice.

[Douglas]

Jesper,

I would take a closer look at this car to be certain the body is as strong as you believe. For example, I'm guessing the trunk floor is rusty judging from the discoloration of the mat. Also, the fit of the bonnet/hood is very uneven. I would want to investigate this further. The carpet has been changed as well, but that's not especially telling in any way. Mind you, I'm not saying this is a bad car. It just warrants a close examination.

Douglas Kim
New York
USA

[jesperw]

Hi Douglas,

I will doublecheck the trunk for signs of rust once again.

When speaking with Hans we also came to the conclusion that the softtop most likely is from a 280SL since the handles are detachable.

Thanks for the comments! Yesterday I joined the Swedish MB Club after a very pleasant conversation with mr Hans. My hope is to find a Pagoda close by, with an owner who is willing to spend an hour for me to inspect it. That way I will get a better reference on the object I am thinking of buying.

Once again, thans a lot for all input in this matter! Any other thoughts and comments are welcome.

/Jesper

It is nice to be important, but more important to be nice.

[Cees Klumper]

Being nice tends to be more important to others, while being important tends to be important to yourself. But I agree with you!

Good luck on the Pagoda hunt. I believe it was Hans who told me that, today, there are more Pagodas in Sweden than were originally sold there...

quote:Originally posted by jesperw

It is nice to be important, but more important to be nice.

Cees ("Case") Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[mbzse]

quote:Originally posted by cees klumper

Good luck on the Pagoda hunt. I believe it was Hans who told me that, today, there are more Pagodas in Sweden than were originally sold there...

Yes, more than twice the number originally sold in Sweden

.

/Hans in Sweden

[jameshoward]

Here's some of my experience of buying a car without any docs. It also shows some of the things that I found on a car that looked great from the outside. (And isn't that bad, but it's quite amazing just how much there can be to put right to make it a driver).

http://index.php?topic=6291

It sounds like you're onto the issues relating to the body. Get a compression test done on the engine. It should cost next to nothing or actually nothing if you have a compression tester!

JH

[France]

Hi Jesper,

Well I can understand if you have an older XJS before the 4-speed was available.  30% more petrol needed cause of the torque converter!  It's true the XJS can be a money pit. You will find your new Pagoda pretty thrifty in comparison.  Good luck!

Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder seat
Sarasota FL; Alsace France; Switzerland
Think of your Pagoda as a woman with a past...

[TheEngineer]

If you supply the VIN number to M/B, they will supply a copy of the datenblatt and tell you where the car was originally sold. Check the engine & transmission numbers against the data. Keys should also match. American cars have a milder cam! 10 HP less! Rust is bad! Accident damage can be repaired but proper repair is very expensive and often not done properly for that reason. Insist on a pre-purchase inspection by a mechanic who has the most knowledge about those cars! (hard to find) Be patient! Remember, if you buy a "black Peter" you are stuck with it!

'69 280SL,Signal Red,Automatic,retired engineer, West-Seattle,WA