Author Topic: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II  (Read 14781 times)

n/a

  • Guest
Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« on: August 29, 2003, 12:23:57 »
Started a new post as the original started to get a little long.

Rodd, per your suggestion I am recapping the equip in my ignition system.

'71 280 SL

Unsure of dist #
Pervious owner had installed a Crane XR3000 high energy ignition, but left original Bosch coil.  This was not hot enough for system. Called Crane and was told to buy a Bosch high energy coil and did so from Ray at SL Classics.  This is a silver coil.  Then purchased a 8mm set of Magneton performance wires.  These made a big improvement in idle and acceleration.

After all these improvements, I still noted a hesitation and miss for a few seconds when leaving a stoplight. Once rpms picked up, it was gone.  Sweet exhaust note, smooth on highway, and shifted well. (translated means typical MB "decisive" shift)  Also noted that it burned rich at idle and when slowly driving around neighborhood.  
Thought that I should bring to shop for timing check and mixture adjustment.  Nothing major in my mind.  Shop kept for 6 days.  Said that they started by completely "resetting rods and linkage to factory specs and now it ran terribly."  They changed the new plug I had put in for Bosch 7's? (or maybe 9's- I had one or the other in there)  They tried to set dwell, but could not get adjusted to spec. Perhaps due to pecularities of Crane system?  Does anyone here have any experience with this? Finally, after 5 days, they try to set the timing to spec printed on door pillar, but got very poor results.  He finally set to TDC (Thanks, Joe!), which resulted in adequete performance, and 30 degrees at 3000 rpm.  

Went by the shop again this morning to check on the car. The mech./owner was just taking it out for a test drive so I joined him. From a stop, it now accelerated smoothly and had good mid-range power, but did not shift into 4th as it used to. Originally, if I accelerated and then leveled off the gas it crisply shifted into 4th. Now I had to completely release the pedal, and as we decelerated it would shift into 4th. He stated that 2-3 shift was by the electric microswitch, but 3-4 shift was done by a vacuum.

Anyway, as we approached the speed limit I would level off, not decelerate the gas to maintain speed. As I did the car had a very rough, raspy, gasp-like tone. It was too lean, he said. So we pulled over, turned off the car and he adjusted the idle screw in the back of the injection pump. This time the hestation was back, mid-range power was gone, and the smoothness gone on take-off. Under full power it ran like a scalded cat, but would NOT shift unless you let off the gas- then sluggishness reappeared. I questioned whether the idle adjustment would help the mixture at load. He showed me in the book (BBB) where the adjustments were. It showed 3 adjustment screws:

The external screw = idle

behind the plate were two other screws

black screw = partial load adj.
white screw = upper range adj. screw

He said that if he adjusted the external idle screw it would move the entire rack up and down and this would adjust the mixture problem. Also said to adjust the internal screws would take something the Germans called a "beer machine?" A device that measures flow rates? However, he could find no middle ground when it was adjusted through the idle screw.

End result is that I had to leave it there with the promise that he would figure it out and fix the problem.

Again the shop has a good rep, and he appears to be very professional and very meticulous. But like you guys said, this is a very finicky fuel system, and you have to be familiar with all it's subtle nuances.  The injection pump looks to have been rebuilt very recently I was told, but he says that it may have problems and have to be rebuilt again.  I am NOT anxious or enthused about that possibilty since it ran fine except for the hesitation/miss when I brought it in.

Thanks for any and all suggestions,

David
'71 280SL

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5685
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2003, 14:12:21 »
As much as you want to trust your mechanic, I wish someone like Joe Alexander or Dan Caron would be able to have a go at it - because it just sounds to me like your mechanic, despite all his experience and good faith, simply does not have the experience that can be necessary to efficiently pinpoint your particular problem(s). Do you know whether he has checked the proper operation of the 3-position solenoid in regards the shifting troubles as Joe suggested?
I know just how you feel (been there myself a couple of times ...) but, once properly sorted, these cars do run extremely well and yours will as well, so hang in there. I will send you all info that I have from the Yahoo! site (digested from many thousands of posts - everything you always wanted to know but were afraid to actually need one day) on this topic, if you send me your email address. Have you checked the technical articles on the home page yet? Some of that information is right there.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7385
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2003, 17:19:04 »
Hello David,
The 10mm lock nut with small slotted screw on the venturi is factory set and should not be tampered with. Often times mechanics mistakingly use this to set the idle. Changing this setting will adversly effect transmission shifting and injection mixture by changing linkage geometry. See picture. Download Attachment: P1010026.jpg
57 KB
This lock nut and screw must allow the linkage, at rest to completely close off the flap (butterfly valve) in the intake venturi. The slotted screw must be set to just barely keep the "flap" from binding in the intake venturi. (Some USA Cars have a vacuum pot which may need to be temporaraly be moved out of the way since it will also hold the "flap open".) Now the linkage can be adjusted and re-attached. Loosen the slotted screw until the linkage flap binds when closed. Now adjust the screw until the flap just closes without binding. Lock the 10mm nut. Adjust the length of the injection rod link to 233mm (center of socket to center of socket). The linkage on the injection pump should be resting on it's hard stop also. Reconnect and adjust other rods if needed. Check to see if the flap in the venturi opens completely when the accelerator pedal is held to the floor. W113 engines with automatics have  switch on the opposite side of the intake venturi and some also with a micro switch on the firewall. This will cause shifting changes if not adjusted also. With the engine at idle and in gear, the venturi switch should have power to both wires (switch on), as soon as the accelerator is moved there should be power to one side only (switch off).
The transmission modulator pressure is changed by the activation of this switch which activates the three positioned solenoid on the automatic transmission. This solenoid moves a short linkage rod on the transmission which changes transmission modulator pressure. The correct adjustment of this switch can make drastic changes in final downshift especially.
Download Attachment: P1010027.jpg
60.59 KB
The transmission modulator pressure is also influenced by engine vacuume at all shifts. The engine vacuume is influenced by engine timing, linkage, mixture, in general the health and tune of the engine. So you can see how this is all interconnected!

As far as the injection, the mixture screw on the back of the pump will change fuel mixture mainly up to 1700 rpms, then the other internal adjustments control the other ranges. Normally additional internal adjustments would not and should not be needed. The entire rpm range of fuel mixture is also influenced by the warm up unit on the pump, barometric compensator, rpms and LINKAGE. Notice we keep getting back to this variable. Any system vaacuum leaks or internal fuel leaks (cold start fuel valve into intake),  will also influence fuel mixtue in all rpm ranges. The ignition can also create many elusive problems which sometimes immitate a fuel mixture problem. If you have a couple things happening at the same time then the complexity increases. Read the spark plugs occasionally, they may give you a clue.
You could be compensating for the real problem which could be sill undetected. Make sure the linkage is right so you can move on to other possibilities. I stress, check the stop screw on the venturi linkage.
Good Luck!


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 17:30:47 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tom

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, VA, Alexandria
  • Posts: 622
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2003, 20:28:01 »
David,

 
quote:
They tried to set dwell, but could not get adjusted to spec. Perhaps due to pecularities of Crane system?


I don't know much about the Crane system, but the Pertronix system, once installed properly, has fixed factory spec dwell-never needs resetting.  That is one of the principal benefits of going with electronic ignition.  I suspect the Crane system is the same but can't be sure.  If the dwell is not to factory spec, then I question if the crane optical trigger was properly aligned when installed.

Best,

Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic
1971 280sl Beach Driver

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5685
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2003, 22:41:37 »
Just emailed David a document containing all of the Yahoo! posts I have digested so far (0-3500 and 7000-9600 ranges) pertaining to engine poor performance troubleshooting, difficult cold and warm starts, fuel injection system cold start devices, and troubleshooting and ignition issues. It's a word document, over 50 pages long, that might be of interest to others as well. I cannot post it here since it's too large a file (some 250 kb) but if you are interested, email me off-line and I will send it to you. This is a lot of very useful information that is pretty accessible and you can print it for use in the garage etc. It is a good troubleshooting guide alongside the BBB, Haynes etc until we get our Technical Manual together ...
« Last Edit: August 29, 2003, 22:42:43 by cees klumper »
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

n/a

  • Guest
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2003, 23:25:48 »
Cees,

What a great collection of 280 knowledge!  VERY helpful.  Learned from that (and others here) that dwell is not an issue on elctronic ignitions.  

Does that mean that dwell is NOT a factor?  i.e. That any dwell number does not matter?  OR that when installing the Crane system you set the dwell to specs and it should never change?  I'm gathering that the former is true.  That there is no longer a dwell value- so my mechanic can stop worrying about it.

I highly recommend that you all take advantage of the offer Cees makes below.

Thanks again for all of your help.  Am taking this to the shop on Tuesday.

David
« Last Edit: August 30, 2003, 07:27:27 by n/a »

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5685
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2003, 07:49:54 »
As I understand it, the electronic ignition modules have the dwell programmed in - you set the timing, and the module automatically applies the correct dwell.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

n/a

  • Guest
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2003, 19:03:28 »
Ok, here's the latest.  I went to the shop first thing Tuesday morning and shared some of your suggestions on timing/distributor concerns.  The owner/mechanic and another mechanic were poring over the BBB when I arrived.  They discounted any distributor problems.  Then I pointed out in the Crane installation manual that rough running is sometimes attributed to improper "phasing" of the XR3000.  To check this you must, literally, punch a view hole in the distributor cap and aim the timing through the hole to verify correct "phasing."  I DID bring by a replacement cap.

Then they told me that they thought it was, again, the injection pump.  It had apparently been rebuilt, or was new, within the last year or two.  They showed me something in the BBB that said that the new pump had to be "zeroed out" correctly before installation.  If not, then it would not run well.  I may have the "zeroed out" phrase wrong, but it had something to do with being calibrated or aligned BEFORE being reinstalled in the car.

They said that they would remove the pump from the car, put it on the bench and check that it was properly "zeroed out" "aligned", etc.  It would take about 5 hours of time.  But then they said that that may turn out NOT to be the problem.  At this point, I explained that I was between jobs and wasn't too enthusiastic about spending $350+ on a repair that may or may not fix my problem.  I asked that the car be returned to the same condition as when I brought it in 2 weeks ago.  Was told they would do the best they could.  Called today and was told it should be ready tomorrow.

Will let you all know how she runs after I pick it up.

Thanks again for all your help.

David

Tom

  • Full Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, VA, Alexandria
  • Posts: 622
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2003, 20:28:28 »
David,

I believe they are are referring to the timing of the FI pump.  Before the pump is removed, the engine timing should be set to 20 degrees *after* top dead center.  When you remove the pump, you will note that there is a notch on the flange and a notch on the pump housing-these should  be lined up when the engine timing is 20 degrees after TDC.

He is suggesting (speculating) that someone did not follow this step and took the FI pump out without regard to the relationship of engine timing to pump timing.  Could be-but like you said, to spend $350 to validate the speculation is not money well spent.  Again, there are so many other areas to focus on before getting into that FI pump.

Best,

Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic
1971 280sl Beach Driver

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7217
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2003, 22:17:22 »
I'm sorry but your guys are lost.
 The more I hear about these electronic gizmos the less I like. The FI pump could be out of time to the engine but in all my years (25) I've only seen this once or twice. One time I told the guy putting it on 20 degrees ATDC and he put it 20 degrees before. It ran like a lump. He called me and I asked him where he put it '' 20 dgrees before '' he says proudly. Should have paid more attention I say. The other time was a 6.3 and if anyone has the nerve to re time one of those pumps you're a real man ( possibly lady as well ) Takes all day to do if everything does well.
In either case the pump was advanced too much and ran very rich and had no power. I miss timmed a 300 SL pump once and it just about gassed me out of the shop. So, yes , it can be wrong but your car ran fairly well before you had it '' FIXED''
Try and get it back to drivable condition and then get back to us.
Dan c


Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

n/a

  • Guest
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2003, 12:51:08 »
David, we are all dying to hear what has happened with your car! :?:

Has it been released from the hospital yet?  Does it run? :)

Michael Penner

Roadstir

  • Junior Level
  • *
  • USA, VA, Richmond
  • Posts: 37
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2003, 07:37:25 »
Sorry it's taken so long to update you guys on the patient.  I did end up getting my baby back that Friday, but have been unable to remove myself from the drivers seat. :D   When I came in to pick it up, the service writer says "I think you'll be pleased with how she runs now."  Hmmmmmm, I think.  Heard that before.

Believe it or not, she started right up.  She idles more smoothly and accelerates without the hesitation and/or miss.  Still not strong on hard acceleration without giving more pedal.  Also, when slowing down for a light, the downshifts are much more smooth.
However, the shifts, especially 3-4 are very late.  I have to let off the gas, even during moderate acceleration from a stop to shift.
And the idle, in neutral, is about 1450 rpms.  In gear it's about 700-750.  

After all these trevails, I asked the writer what turned out to be the problem.  He says "they made a few adjustments."  Yeah right, I'll have to talk to the mechanic to find out.  Last time they told me they'd done all they could do- and pointed to the fuel injection pump.  So now I think that something may have been overlooked.  To their credit, they were very upfront during the process, and ended up only charging me the original amount of $130.  They'd had the car for 2-3 weeks.

Once I find out exactly what the problem was, I'll let you guys know.

I really appreciate everyone's interest and suggestions.  The super people on this site give great peace of mind to those of us suffering with a sick car.

David

rwmastel

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Canal Winchester
  • Posts: 4550
  • Pagoda SL Group: 20+ years and going strong!
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2003, 08:14:55 »
David,
A little off topic:  Are you RoadstirVA from the USA or Roadstir from the Ukraine?  Are multiple personalities a common problem for you?   :D

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
2017 C43 AMG
2006 Wrangler Rubicon
1966 230SL auto "Italian"

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, De Luz and Los Angeles
  • Posts: 5685
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Sputter...sputter...phut - UPDATE II
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2003, 14:21:27 »
Hello David. The difference between the idle in gear and in neutral most likely points to a disfunctional or improperly adjusted idle speed solenoid; the device sitting on top of the intake manifold that pushes the linkage when the car is put in gear, to compensate for the drag on the engine. It sounds like it is not working (properly) and, in order to get an acceptable idle RPM when the car is in gear, the mechanic set the idle too high for when the car is in neutral. You can check this as follows. Start the engine with the hood open, then observe the solenoid as you put the car in gear (applying the brake, naturally) (You will have to stick your head out of the car faaaaaaar to observe this). If the solenoid does not move, or does not move sufficiently, that will be your problem.
The solenoid is only present on automatic cars or cars with A/C (same function).

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II