Author Topic: Kingpin play - up/down  (Read 21814 times)

BHap

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Kingpin play - up/down
« on: May 23, 2005, 17:05:49 »
Just finished replacing an upper, outer control arm bushing on my 70 280SL.  That took out most of the play but there is still a small amount of up and down movement in the kingpin when I lift under the wheel..  I read where endplay is adjusted by using a different thrust washer - is this an option or is the up and down play an indication that the kingpin needs replaced... car has about 53,000 miles and upper bushing can out with no problem - well greased over the years...  also there is an adjustable reamer on the bay - is this the right tool to ream the kingpin bushing after installation or do I want one that is a set size?  thanks in advance for your help...

Bob
Bob Happe
Pittsburgh, Pa
1970 280SL, white/black 4 speed

A Dalton

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2005, 19:54:11 »
King pin end float is corrected with compensating washers on the bottom, but it is easy to mistake worn bottom pivot bolt/bearing assembly for kingpin float when jacking from the wheel.
 The bolts wear on one side of the threads and if you  look real close with a strong light while someone uses a bar under the tire .. you may see the slop at the pivot bolt instead of between the pin and bearing support.

ja17

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2005, 22:03:16 »
Hello Bob,
King pin and link pin wear can usually be seen by jacking the car directly under the front coil spring and then testing for in and out movement at the top and bottom of the front wheel.

The up and down movement may not be an indication of kingpin wear.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 22:19:08 »
The real wear you should look at is radial play. Grab the wheel at top and bottom ( 12 and 6 o'clock ) and push with one hand and pull with the other in a rocking motion. You can produce movement in the pivots and wheel bearings doing this so you need someone to watch where the play is. If greasing the king pin removes all the play, it's worn.

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BHap

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2005, 16:45:22 »
Ok - I need kingpins...  are the outer lower control arm bushings a fast wear item that I should consider replacing while I have things apart?  I replaced the upper outer control arm bushing on one side - and will do the other, but I'm wondering about the lowers - they look good and have been greased regularly on this 53,000 mile car...  lastly - what is the concensus on replacing the bushings vs. just the kingpins?  I've read in the archives that usually only the kingpin wears. my mechanic confirms he has 50 sets of bushings he's never had to install....  if the new king pins fit properly - what is to be gained by changing the bushings?  thanks for all your help...

Bob
Bob Happe
Pittsburgh, Pa
1970 280SL, white/black 4 speed

Benz Dr.

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2005, 23:03:56 »
Lower pivots aren't that much and you have to knock the king pin out of them anyway.
I've always used all the parts in the kit including the bushings. I suppose if the pin fits well you could just use that. The new bushing will fit over the king pin but once it's installed then it's too small. This should be honed to fit and not reamed. It only takes a small amount to make them fit and you only want it so that it will turn freely.

Dan Caron's
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1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

enochbell

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 07:33:04 »
Arthur,

You descibe quite accurately the wear indication on my lower CA bushing bolts: they were bright and slightly flat along one side of the bolt.  Now, as for reassembling the king pin, is there a guide for correct float?  I torqued properly the bolts on the bottom of the king pin: one side ended up with zero float, the other side does an audible click-clack on up and down pressure. I would appreciate your suggestion,

Thanks,
g

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

BHap

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 15:39:53 »
the spec for end play in the kingpin is:

Installation play    0.05 - 0.10 mm
Max perm. play       0.5

this is a balancing act between torque on the lower kingpin nut and the freeplay...  the lower kingpin nut calls for 9 mkp which is about 65 ft lbs....  the free play adjustment is done by "adjusting" the lower compensating washer on the kingpin...  sanding the washer will increase end play...  if you can't get the nut up to 65 ft lbs and have correct endplay (i went by the feel of the steering knuckle as it is turned from side to side - too tight when torqued, washer too thick - sand and repeat)...  if too much end play, go to a thicker washer.....  a little tedious but if you don't get it right, the steering will feel dead...

Bob Happe
Pittsburgh, Pa
1970 280SL, white/black 4 speed
Bob Happe
Pittsburgh, Pa
1970 280SL, white/black 4 speed

enochbell

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2005, 04:51:22 »
Thanks, bhap, I have no problem with shimming/shaving the side that is too loose to get the shim to bring the float to spec., that will just require a little patience.  But the side that is too tight gives me zero float with no shim installed and with just a snug tightening of the end nut.  It is almost as if I have the wrong size king pin taper (too small) or the wrong size lower bushing (too big).  The bushings are new and match.  Any ideas as to what might be wrong?  I can't think of any reasonable way to add metal to either the king pin or the bushing to make this work.

Thanks for your help,

greg

'64 230sl, fully sorted out...ooops, spoke too soon

erickmarciano

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2005, 07:15:46 »
same here Greg

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waltklatt

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2005, 07:42:50 »
When tightening the big nut on the bottom of the kingpin, is it supposed to be very snug or just enough the allow the spindle to turn easily without much force and the small tabs on the lock washer bent up to hold the nut in place?
Sorry for the long question.  The kingpin has no play up/down or rocking, just snug but the big nut on the bottom can turn a bit more.
Thanks, Walter

BHap

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2005, 10:35:36 »
make sure that the upper thrust washer is properly seated on the pin and has not moved on top of it...  I had this happen on one of my kingpins and it tightened very quickly with zero free play...  unfortunately this also "mashed" the guide pin and required a little finess to put it back in workable form...  use a very thin coat of grease to hold the thrust washer in placew and be careful not to bump it on the way up...

Bob Happe
Pittsburgh, Pa
1970 280SL, white/black 4 speed
Bob Happe
Pittsburgh, Pa
1970 280SL, white/black 4 speed

Longtooth

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2008, 02:50:41 »
Just got my new front wheel bearings installed and back on the spindle, torqued down to approx. final end play, when I noticed in push/pull (at 12 & 6 oclock) a slight click sound with a very slight feel of some up/down or back/forth tilt (can't tell whether it's pure up/down or tilt back/forth) ... though I can't see any movement even carefully looking with focused lighting at the ends of the king pins.

This is all with no load on the spindle by the way, ... front end of car's on jacks on the chassis near the tire jack holes.

There's no such sound when I push/pull at 3 & 9 oclock.  I know it isn't in the new bearings ('cause I repeated the sounds and 'feel' just pushing/pulling on the spindle end).  It's about the same sound and 'feel' on both right and left sides of the car, only in vertical axis (12 & 6 oclock push/pull).  

So is this most likely in the control arm bushings... if control arm bushing's I assume it's in the outers.... but which... lower or upper?.... both? ,or is the play play in the king pin? If in the king pin is it purely a vertical play or would/could it be OD/ID clearance?  This movement is very slight... I don't have a dial indicator handy so can't measure it yet, but what caught my attention first was the slight "click" sound... some piece metal is 'hitting' another piece so something's got a clearance somewhere. I can't see even a hint of movement anywhere --- but I may not be looking at the right places either.

Is there a definitive way to tell which parts have the play? while everything's still on the car?  If not a definitive means, then what are the logical progressive (easiest to eliminate) choices in determining what's causing it.  

I don't and haven't had any noticable steering problems, but I have noticed a slight clunk or click in the front end when I back out of my driveway over the slight gutter with the wheels cranked over as I back into the street.... sound's are similar.. .not a "thunk" but a "click" or high pitched "clunk"... higher pitch rather than lower.  

The coincidence of sounds, both from the front end (backing out of driveway and up/down spindle "click" sound when push/pull on the spindle) suggests a probable common source and relationship between the two.

Longtooth
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'02 SL500 Sport

al_lieffring

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2008, 10:19:48 »
quote:
Originally posted by Longtooth

I don't and haven't had any noticable steering problems, but I have noticed a slight clunk or click in the front end when I back out of my driveway over the slight gutter with the wheels cranked over as I back into the street.... sound's are similar.. .not a "thunk" but a "click" or high pitched "clunk"... higher pitch rather than lower.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport



The sound often described by customers as "crunching" when the steering was held  hard against the end stops and rolling over a bump was a common complaint of Benz cars of this era. It has to do with the steering trunion being forced against the mechanical stop of the lower outer bushing and twisting against the lower controll arm to where it binds.

The best soloution anyone ever came up was, "Don't do that and it won't make that sound".

The 107 and 116 front ends were even worse at this because the steering stop was on the lower controll arm and moved verticaly against the trunion stop when the car rolled over a bump with the steering held against the lock.


Al Lieffring
66 230SL
« Last Edit: April 04, 2008, 10:23:21 by al_lieffring »

Longtooth

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2008, 20:48:10 »
Al, thanks... as I reflect with detail on the sound I hear when backing out of the driveway over the gutter while turning hard to or near the stops, you're absolutely right.

I spent more time today trying to isolate where the sound "click" I hear when lifting or push/pulling up/down on the spindle. While I cleaned joints off even more and spent effort to see if I could actually see any motion, I still can't see anything, so it's hidden inside something.

However, I was able to isolate where the sound is emminating from... at least approximately, and have eliminted some possibilities at the very least.

The sound is coming from above the upper control arm or at the upper shock mounting area.  I listened carefully following the sound and believe its under the shock cover (new bilstein shocks, properly installed with an MB W113 professional expert by my side while I did the work).  That's not the final word, but the intermediate analysis thus far is that it's a click in the unloaded shocks.  

I can say with certainty though that it isn't coming from either control arm bushings, either inner or outers, upper or lower, nor the trailing arm or anything in that area --- spelled RELIEF! Sound get's louder the closer I place my ear to the upper part of the fender well. I 'think' I feel something when I place my finger on the rod sticking up thru the upper mounting for the shock in the engine compartment... but that may be wishful thinking rather than objective, or I may be feeling a transmission of vibration by whatever's hitting whatever and creating the little "click" sound, rather than movement itself.  I've placed my hand on suspension carrier that's attached a the upper part of the chassis, with the big rubber mount and can't feel anything there when I create the "click".... but these are the only two are's where anything comes from the spindle to the upper part of the wheel well.

I'll have to isolate it further and with certainty by attaching a dial indicator to things to see movement when I hear "click".  I'll post more when I know more.
 
Upate Apr 4, evening:
I think I may have figured out where the "click" sound is... won't be able to see it and am still not absolutely sure, but from apparent sound source and design at top of the shock it fits what I've found thus far without any actual displacement measurements.

There's a captured retainer ring on the shock shaft at the top. Whether it's captured by wings on the shaft or indents (as shown in my diagram) is immaterial.  There's a vertical clearance between the retainer thickness and the shaft's indent height or (wing opening height) in which the captured retainer sits.  It is this clearance
that gives rise to the "click" sound as the shaft moves up when I pull up on the spindle (or any other part of the control arms / spindle asm)... and the captured retainer hits the other side
of the slot it's retained in (or protruding flags that retain it).  



I admittedly haven't yet worked out why the forces are such that my pulling up on the spindle/control arms causes the click going "up", and again when I release my "up" force or pull down, but the gas filled shock shaft pushes up in it's normal state.  When the wheel is suspended, the coil spring is pushing down on the lower control arm down to it's fullest extent, and therefore trying to pull the shock shaft down with it also.... though I distinctly recall that the force on the shock shaft was still pushing it "up" (since it was still difficult to compress the shock to get the two bolt studs at the bottom of the shock into the holes in the lower control arm), so the forces should still be forcing the shock shaft "up" even with the wheel fully suspended.

Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
'02 SL500 Sport

« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 02:46:58 by Longtooth »

Longtooth

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2008, 21:09:37 »
Update:

My up/down play at the front wheel spindle that I thought was coming from the top of my wheel-well wasn't!  Hence, the supposed play at the shock shaft at the top turned out to be in error.

I measured the vertical play at 0.005" relative to the upper control aram... measured at the hub.... and could find no motion at the shock shaft. There was no (<<0.001" which is the resolution on the dial indicator I used) play in the horizontal direction.

Soooooo.... I lubed all the joints (upper and lower inner and outer control arm bushings.... no change... still 5 mils vertical play.  I then lubed the king pin at top 'til lube seeped out of the joint--- no change... then at bottom... again, no change... finally at the center and Voila!!!! vertical play could no longer be measured.  Therefore, I have to swallow and accept that my king-pin bushing is worn.  

Same on the other side.

Longtooth
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 06:10:41 »
The king pin tends to wear more than the inner pivots although the top contol arm inners wear faster than the lower ones. Some of this has to do with load and some of it has to do with the actual lenght of the control arms. The shorter one moves faster and more than the longer one at the pivot point.
 
Generally they wear in roughly this order:
upper outer pivot*
lower outer pivot*
king pin and bushings*
idler arm bushing
tie rod ends
upper inner
lower inner
wheel bearings
drag link

I've taken this from all the front end work I've done and how many times I've replaced each part.
* these three items tend to wear at the same rate and are generally all replaced at the same time.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

hands_aus

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Re: Kingpin play - up/down
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 06:28:53 »
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.

The king pin tends to wear more than the inner pivots although the top contol arm inners wear faster than the lower ones. Some of this has to do with load and some of it has to do with the actual lenght of the control arms. The shorter one moves faster and more than the longer one at the pivot point.
 
Generally they wear in roughly this order:
upper outer pivot*
lower outer pivot*
king pin and bushings*
idler arm bushing
tie rod ends
upper inner
lower inner
wheel bearings
drag link

I've taken this from all the front end work I've done and how many times I've replaced each part.
* these three items tend to wear at the same rate and are generally all replaced at the same time.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
  1 877 661 6061


sorry, I don't want to steal this topic but it is very. relevant
Dr Dan
I have been told my upper outer bushes have frozen and need to be replaced because they can't do a full wheel alignment. Should the lower outer bushes be replaced at the same time?
thanks

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
BEST OF THE BEST!
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best