Author Topic: fuel inj pump frustration  (Read 6238 times)

merrill

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fuel inj pump frustration
« on: May 04, 2008, 19:23:14 »
so, here goes,  66 230 sl,auto, rebuilt motor, inj pump, wrd, csv checked relays etc, dwell 38, timing 30 deg btdc at 3000 rpmp

symptom 1
when warmed up 80 dec c, car would not idle - rpm's would go up and down, car would ping under load
checked co2.  
Idle co - 4.4
1500 co 3.8
richness test = very little increase in rpm's
assumption car = too lean.

called hans, and I ended up clicking the main fuel adjustment inside
2 clicks counter clock wise.
After, car would idle when warmed up
idle co 7.4
1500 co 9.5
richness test = rpm's increase to 1300 rpm
still had pinging sound under load

pulled pump and I ended up clicking the main fuel adjustment inside
1 click clockwise.
idle co = 5.7
1500 co = 10
richness test = rpm's go up to 1100 rpm
still has pinging sound under load

I have not touched the idle fuel mixture. I wanted to make sure the car would idle smoothly and the co at 1500 was in spec.

any thoughts?  I am starting to think there is something else putting fuel into the system.

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

Longtooth

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 04:59:45 »
By "pinging" do you mean timing of spark too advanced relative to valve opening at end of compression stroke... or what?  

My thoughts:
 
You may have to retard the spark a degree or two at 3k rpm... since spec's are designated for high octane gasoline --- before the lead free stuff came along.  OR check valve tappet clearances first before you change timing.   If tappet clearance is insufficient (less than spec clearance) than valve's open sooner than they should... equivalent to spark being too advanced relative to valve opening.  OR, valve seating's not right on newly rebuilt head (assuming you're talking Long Block motor rebuild).  Also, the spec 30 degr BTDC @ 3k rpm applies without vacuum control.

I get pinging under heavy loads or heavy acceleration on my Chevy's 327 when I advance the spark too much... which I do more often than not since I'm always trying to maximize power and acceleration to hairy edge.  The vacuum advances (hence the term "vacuum advance" as opposed to "mechanical advance") the rotation of the points, so if you're setting the timing (strobing it) at 3k rpm with vacuum applied then it's more advanced than it should be.  The same 30 degr BTDC applies at 4500 rpm without vacuum as well... in other words, there should be no change in timing from 3k to 4.5k rpm.  If there is then you're advancing the distributor points (from top of distributor cam lobe) or you have a wobble in the distributor cam shaft --- meaning the shaft's bushing is warn so that it's location under higher torque is different than at lower torques.. speeds.  I can't recall whether the vacuum is adequet to advance anything at 3k or not, but it should be. The spec's (BBB ==> Big Blue Book ==> MB Shop Service Manual) insist in BOLD TYPE that the vacuum control must be in-0p during strobe setting of timing.  

I assume you've set the point gap to spec's (0.3 - 0.4 mm ==> 11.8 - 15.7 mils or 12 - 15 mils in round figures... I always shoot for 14 - 15 mils since the gap will decrease with use and the preverbial '****' that builds up on the points eventually, and that therefore decreases the dwell angle... which also advances the ignition)  before you started any timing measures, right?

FWIW -- the rest of this explains the pinging sound source... read only to get a general handle on why this occurs.  Also you can google "engine pinging" or other words to that effect. Wikipedia has a reasonable starting explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking

After ignition of spark it takes a finite amount of time for the fuel/air mixture of compressed gases to "burn" (explode ==> combust)... creating the expansion of the gases during the reaction (oxidation) that provides the power to push the piston.  The peak of the explosive power occurs roughly mid-way in the duration of combustion.  Since the peak power occurs during the peak part of the combustion phase, the maximum expansion occurs well after ignition (spark).

Because the piston operates on a sinusoidal displacement curve, it's maximum leverage point occurs half-way down the power stroke, so the maximum advantage occurs from approx. 1/3'rd down the power stroke (60 degr ATDC) to 2/3's down the power stroke (120 degr ATDC).  It is over this approx. range that the combustion is designed to be maximized ... each engine design has it's unique optimal position in terms of peak explosive power to maximum mechanical advantage position of the piston during the power stroke.  

Since the combustion takes time, ignition has to occur well enough in advance of this maximum leverage condition so that the maximum expansion occurs during the approx. max. mechanical leverage of the power stroke (which is AFTER Compression TDC).



When ignition occurs too soon, here's what goes wrong...

The maximum expansion (explosive power) occurs before the piston is at it's designed maximum mechanical leverage point... so that most of the power is pushing on a piston that has relatively much larger mechanical resistance to movement.... restricting the advance of the explosion progress and wave-front.  This creates a pocket or pockets of unburned fuel somewhere in the combustion chamber that ignite explosively creating a sudden shock to the piston, valves, rod and the sound you hear as a "pinging".  I'm not sure though if the ping is the sound of the shock (explosion) itself or the effect of that shock on the piston, valves, and rod that create vibration in one / more of them that results in the audible sound.  I'd guess it's the latter since the ping sound is very high frequency sound... unlike what you hear during pre-detonation (when hot carbon on the valves or some other portion of the combustion chamber ignites unburned gasses in a random time pattern causing the sounds you hear during pre-detonation.
 

Look at it slightly differently.  If the piston were at TDC when max expansion occurred, the maximum energy is fully resisted by the fact that the piston is pushing straight down at that point directly on the crankshaft with zero mechanical leverage (crank lobe is directly beneith and in-line with the piston rod... i.e. totally wasted energy.... likely to warp/bend the rod or blow a hole in the top of the piston.... that energy has to go somewhere no matter what.  It's that fully expanded gas that has no-where to go that creates a shock to the piston/rod & valves... hence the ping.

So, to avoid this problem of course, the explosion / expansion has to start early enough before TDC so that the maximum expansion ocurrs AFTER TDC ... as I said above something around 50-60 degrees ATDC... but don't take these angles for gospel.... tweeking the maximum amount of net energy out of the explosion is an art form (highly specialized engineering) for any given specific engine / piston / valve port & size design.

When the engine's under load, the resistance to mechanical leverage of the piston/rod on the crank is increased independant of rpm. ... so the maximum explosive power (expansion of gasses) occurs at the same time in the stroke.  If the explosion too advanced, but still is o.k. (no pinging sounds) with no load, then when under load at the same rpm it's too advanced for the mechanical advantage required... and it pings when the explosion has no where to go (expansion is being resisted too much by the piston's relation to the crankshaft lobe/rod alignment)... creating the shock... hence pinging sound. The reason dropping to a lower gear reduces he pinging is because the resistance on the crank/rod/piston from the wheels thru the tranny is reduced.... reducing the resistance toward the 'no load' condition.

 


Longtooth
67 250SL US #113-043-10-002163
The 6% Club - Best of the Best
'02 SL500 Sport

wwheeler

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 14:20:54 »
Fantastic explanation and thanks for the education!

In fact, I was checking the timing on my M130 engine last night and it was 30 degrees @ 3000 RPM with the vacuum to the distributor disconnected. I was very leary taking it up to 4500 RPM as listed on the valve cover decal. I am glad to know 3000 is good enough but will check to see if the timing changes between 3000 and 4500 rpm.

Wallace Wheeler
Texas
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Wallace
Texas
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merrill

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 08:47:41 »
so, here is some addl information.  I called hans and he had me increase the idle mixture 3 clicks clock wise.

Tested the co this am with my gas tester
idle co - 1 - 1.2 %  (car does not idle smoothly)
1500 co 7 - 8 %

went around the corner to my inspection station to verify co%
idle co 1.3
15 - 1800 7.3%
back to idle 2.3%

so now I am realy frustrated.  It apears hans had the pump correct for the 1500 rpm + range but something is causing the car to lean out at idle when warm 80 deg +.

I will call hans,  Here is my guess,  I need to set the main fuel adjustment back to zero (should get co back to spec (4 - 6% co)

and I need to shim up the WRD on the pump to keep the pump from leaning out at idle.  (after re setting the idle mixture back to zero setting)

thoughts?

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

hands_aus

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2008, 06:27:21 »
My understanding is that the CO level is only checked at idle speed.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
BEST OF THE BEST!
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

merrill

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2008, 08:58:54 »
Bob
there are co values for idle, 1500 rpm and 3000 rpm.
there are also 2 fuel mixture circuits on my injection pump.

main rack adjustment (adjusts mixture for all ranges)
idle adjustment (adjust mixture only for idle)

because of my problems with my car I decided to make sure the mixture at 1500 was correct before messing with the idle.

matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230

hands_aus

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2008, 03:45:03 »
quote:
Originally posted by merrill

Bob
there are co values for idle, 1500 rpm and 3000 rpm.
there are also 2 fuel mixture circuits on my injection pump.

main rack adjustment (adjusts mixture for all ranges)
idle adjustment (adjust mixture only for idle)

because of my problems with my car I decided to make sure the mixture at 1500 was correct before messing with the idle.

matt

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230


Matt,
All pumps have the same fuel arrangement with the internal rack and external idle fuel adjustment.
The important CO level is taken at IDLE.
The other CO levels are not adjustable without adjusting the screws inside the Injection pump itself.
Once you have the idle CO level set to specification and assuming the rest of the engine specs are set your car should run purrrfectly.

turn the knob clockwise when looking at the front to richen the mixture. Counter clockwise to lean the mixture.

Has the WRD thermostat been replaced?

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
BEST OF THE BEST!
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

merrill

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Re: fuel inj pump frustration
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2008, 10:56:48 »
Bob,

The other CO levels are not adjustable without adjusting the screws inside the Injection pump itself. - I disagree,  once the main rack adjustment for the fuel is set, any time you change the idle adjuster screw you change the % of air for all ranges.

this is because you have the throttle body air AND the idle air.

I chose to work "backwards"  check the co at 1500 then the idle.
If the idle is rich or lean both can be adjusted at the idle mixture screw on the pump with out touching the idle air screw.

Thanks

Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230