Author Topic: Preaching to the Choir  (Read 10748 times)

J. Huber

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Preaching to the Choir
« on: July 16, 2008, 22:24:45 »
...'cause I know you guys are good listeners and can appreciate the sermon! These cars are incredible!!

Today, I needed to go down the hill into the big city (Sacramento area) and decided to take the Pagoda. As I made my way along Interstate 5 side-by-side a bunch of modern cars, trucks, and SUVs, I was convinced all over again -- these cars are truly one of a kind. We all know they look sharp and turn peoples heads. But does the average Joe (not to be confused with our superior Joe) really understand how well these 45 year old vehicles perform? With the top down, doing a good 70-75 most of the way, I was absolutely pumped up with adrenaline. While it was fun, it was kind of scary as well. But the car handled very steadily and true, and had plenty of horses ready to ride if necessary. Couple this with several miles of Sierra foothill roads back home and it was a great day!

You're all dismissed (now go do as I do and as I say...)
James
63 230SL

Cees Klumper

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2008, 22:47:06 »
I regularly get the car up to (and occasionaly over) around 100 MPH and it's always a thrill. And there is no comparing the W 113 to modern cars, it's always nicer, I would say even in relation to a modern Ferrari or what have you. The only cars that can 'compete' as far as I am concerned are certain other classic cars.

But my own recent "wow, aren't these cars really beautiful" experience I had a day or two ago: because my wife wants me to move the hardtop from occupying space in one of our rooms in Amsterdam, I put it on so I could take it to the country house in France after not having had it on the car for, maybe, 4 years. The car really looks entirely different with that hardtop on, and in my eyes at least a lot more attractive than with the softtop. Anyway, I fell in love with it all over again I suppose.

For purposes of making the long trip to France, I've done quite a bit of maintenance to get things really right, among which installing a 123 dizzy, setting the linkages just right, replacing transmission fluid and filter, new wiper blades, spark plugs and a number of other small improvements, and it's like a new car again. The only 'fault' really is the fuel consumption, but even that has improved as a result of my latest tinkerings.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

glennard

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 09:22:46 »
Cees, With your car now 'tuned up', how many miles per gallon(for we Americans)?  The MB car manuals for the 111 coupes have comsumption curves that claim 25 mpg at 50mph.  113s have the same engines, but weigh in lighter.  Do we believe it?  Drive it at 50-60 for a tankfull-I know that will be tough to do.

JamesL

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 13:36:41 »
I have had my car for coming up five years

Sadly enough, since July 05, I have kept a record of every drop of fuel that goes in the car. I also keep a note of the mileage. This is spreadsheeted...

So in the past three years I have done a mere 10,519 miles. Spent £1,859 on 1,994 litres of petrol (at an average cost of £0.934 a litre).

And averaged 24mpg or 7.48km per litre. The price per litre has gone up about 37% in that time too...

The car runs well but has had no special treatment of the engine. Well over 3000 of the miles were fully laden on European road trips. And I drive it reasonably hard. So yes, I reckon the MB figures are not far off

Bearing in mind that I am talking Imperial, not US, gallons (I am pretty much bang on 20mpg US)...
James L
Oct69 RHD 280 in DB906 with cognac leather

mdsalemi

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 13:59:10 »
Yesterday, for the first time in nearly a month I took the car out.  The drive was on "our autobahn" (I-696); my car's sweet spot is "gauges vertical" which translates to about 70 MPH +/-; and about 3750 RPM +/-.  Likes to run at that speed, smooth as silk, and ALL KINDS of untapped power.  I'm kind of slow off the line but from 70-90 I'm all over it.

Then the reality.  With just over 100 miles on the odometer, I stopped at Costco for "discounted" fuel.  Those 100+ miles cost $37.00.  Oh well, it got a good 75 mile run yesterday, half of it at 70+ highway speed, then a gentle wash (yes with water) at my car wash before being put away clean.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 14:41:41 »
A couple of thoughts from the previous owner, 37 years, of my car.  I, unfortunately, have not had the opportunity to experience pedal to the metal for sustained periods.

Interesting that many have said the "sweet spot" is 70-90mph. It would agree - my car is eerily quiet between 4,200 and 5,000 rpm. When I used to "commute" from Santa Cruz to San Francisco, CA up Hwy 1, I ran that range for the whole trip, with runs up to 6,500 rpm on the long straights. These cars really do perk up and become sports cars once you get past 60mph. Below that my 2000 Golf is just as quick and much quieter. I have seen 6,800 rpm occasionally and once reached 7,000 - but there was a 40mph tailwind on that run.

Another...

I also made several runs from Scotts Valley to Temple City - 375 miles in 4 hours. I would pick up I5 in the valley, before it was opened, go around the barriers and run wide open from 46 to the intersection with the old 99. In fact, I find that to get any performance out of these cars today I must still drive them wide open "winding out to 6k rpm on every acceleration", with all the attendant racket that goes with it.

Moral of the story, these cars are not made for pussies.

quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

75 mile run yesterday...then a gentle wash (yes with water) at my car wash before being put away clean.



That's interesting.  I've driven my car 600 miles since I got it in Dec. and have never washed it.


« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 18:22:27 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 15:17:48 »
I don't cover my car in my garage.  I like to look at it, even when just coming in and out of the garage; it's far more attractive unwrapped then under its winter flannel...

That luxury of viewing comes at a price--dust.  Plain old dust and dirt from the air, from all the trees in the neighborhood--it ends up in my garage and on my car.  I'm just not anal enough, for lack of a better expression, to dust it daily, or to keep the garage door open ONLY when coming in or out.  Sometimes I have to actually work in there and the best light and air is from outside.

Had the car sat only a week, I could have dusted it with that California Duster thingy in the trunk.  But a month--that called for stronger stuff like water.  So, a little wash with RO water (I didn't need soap yesterday) and a rubdown/dry with a microfiber brings it back to a nice shine.

Accolades to those who can avoid dust.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 18:22:05 »
Oh, no car cover...can't hop in and go and like you said, nice to see.  Haven't had the top up in two months.

Pics...how they sleep, 10 minutes ago.  How I keep them clean.  I'll also blow out the interior and exterior with the compressor or leaf blower.

Haven't washed the Porsche either since getting it a year ago.



« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 08:37:39 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2008, 07:28:37 »
John, your environment is obviously quite different than mine.  You have a very nice garage that is not like most peoples.  Mine is merely a garage attached to a house.  Nothing special.  Unlike your garage, mine is populated in the winter not with collector cars, but working cars.  My wife's car sits next to the Pagoda and it isn't an old Porsche.  It's a daily driver.

The dust and dirt, cottonwood and poplar tree debris, leaves, etc. blow into my garage every time, EVERY TIME the door is opened.  There's already a layer of dust on my car now.

The concrete floor creates dust too; I blew that out and hosed it down the other day.  The alternative is an epoxy floor covering (the homeowner kits don't work; I've seen hundreds of dollars go down the drain from every one of my neighbors fool enough to try them) or having a pro do it.  One neighbor did; 5 years ago, a 3-car garage done professionally was over $4,000.  Too rich for me.

Did I mention the bugs?  Any 100 miles on highway around here in the summer will leave you with a nice etymology collection stuck to the front.

We know you absolutely despise putting water on your car(s) and "wash" them without water.  But like your garage, you are in a small, distinct and I'd suggest, very exclusive minority.  Water?  Works for me; most others, too, I think.

Perhaps next year, John, you'll join us all at PUB--at take that Pagoda on a good long highway trip from Wisconsin to Blacklick.  If you don't get the "highway bugs" you'll certainly get caught in some rain.  It's very hard to keep a car that is really used driving, from getting dirty.  You never know when a summer shower will hit; or the remains of one with a muddy ole puddle.  Kudos to you for avoiding anything that requires water to clean your car.

Right around the corner from all the Blacklick hotels is a little self serve car wash.  You can usually find me there shortly after the trip down, getting rid of road debris.  Bring quarters and I'll show you how it's done!  :D

« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:45:07 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2008, 08:18:17 »
Trust me, I know how to wash cars.  I've been detailing cars since I was a young teen (that'd be 40 years now).  

You are correct on the Pagoda garage.  Dust occurs, but not to the degree of the daily.  We do get our share of pollen, cottonwood, dandelions, leaves and debris.  

You are right, an epoxy coating on the floor is the way to go, the paints just won't last...I went through three iterations of that in the daily garage before spilling for the epoxy (slurry, not paint).

I don't know how much I'm in the minority in avoiding water and certainly commercial car washes on my classics.  For heavier issues, such as a good bugging like on my 200 mile drive to Chicago and back, I'll use a damp rag shortly after returning to loosen and remove the bugs.  For a rain spray, same trip to chi town, a damp rag will remove any light dirt.  Then onto the detailer and microfibre.  Heavy dirt, heavy dust, heavy pollen, mud, tar, road paint, caked on old bugs, dried up gas spills, etc., yes, water and a soft, soapy mitt are the way to go, even clay if need be.  And at that, I might only do the affected section like the wheels, grille and rockers.  I haven't had to deal with that situation on the classics.

Bottom line...everyone has their preference.  As long as the cars are kept cosmetically presentable and mechanically sound, all is well.

P.S. the 600 miles I've put on the car have essentially been since May.  The car is driven at least twice a week.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 12:15:09 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

J. Huber

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2008, 08:53:14 »
It turns out that in my little world, I can get away with a daily duster and MaGuire's QuickDetailer most of the year. I drive the car almost every day that the sun is out (just gotta) but the drives are short and local. And while I am shrouded in pollenous trees, perhaps the wind blows away from my garage.

Every so often I wipe the car down with a moist towel (usually after drying one of the other vehicles that got the old fashioned hose and soap -- they do get very dirty!). Only after a sustained trip to SF or elsewhere do I do a quick hose and hand wash. Once or twice a year. Usually right before wax. Just don't need to.

As for going to the "car wash", very rare. Only a few times have I used the automatic wand to spray the engine bay and undercarriage. Just a bit too much of a deluge for my old bucket of bolts...
James
63 230SL

hill

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2008, 10:36:45 »
Had a guy checking out my car on the way to work today and gave me a thumbs up. Not unusual but he was driving a cobra! Probably a rep, but those side pipes sound sweet.

TR

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2008, 13:29:59 »
Michael -- What is your preferred method for cleaning under the hood?  I know you have lots of beautiful yellow & silver cad plating there, and that you will want to keep it new & fresh looking.  The reason I ask is that I also have a lot of new cad plating (thanks for the referral on that), and have not yet done any underhood cleaning since the bay was painted, new Metric long block was installed, etc.  But my main concern is to keep that new cad looking like new for as long as I can.

Thanks!

Oh, and John; after seeing the photo of your Griots Speed Shine I ordered a bottle.  Thanks for that hint...Your cars are gorgeous.  BTW, wish I had my '64 356SC back again.  Lovely stable mate for a Pagoda.

mdsalemi

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2008, 14:24:11 »
My preferred method of cleaning under the hood is to use a strong degreaser such as "Oil Eater"; sometimes simple mineral spirits, and has a last resort, brake cleaner.

Cut up some micro-fiber towel into strips, and use them to do the fine cleaning.  Else, simple towels; sometimes wrapped around craft sticks (popsicle sticks) or sometimes using foam pads.

The best way to have a nice engine bay is NOT to let it get so dirty.  It's astounding the crap that gets in there after a highway trip!  You have to really work at it to keep it clean
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2008, 14:38:17 »
quote:
Originally posted by TR

Oh, and John; after seeing the photo of your Griots Speed Shine I ordered a bottle.  Thanks for that hint...Your cars are gorgeous.  BTW, wish I had my '64 356SC back again.  Lovely stable mate for a Pagoda.



The whole thing reminded me to order a gallon.  I also got some of the rubber dressing.

For a general washing of engines, P21S Total Wash, ph balanced is a good choice.  It can be diluted to desired strength.  One needs to be careful of strong cleaners like Purple power or Simple Green or XXXX, as they can discolor make chalky many of the metal finishes.  Generally though, if the car is not leaking, it really doesn't get too dirty.  A leaf blower will remove a lot of dust and then a damp rag will clean painted surfaces.  Speed Shine certainly adds to the glow, great on the inside of the hood.  For restoring some metal bling, Mothers mag and aluminum polish is great.  However, great care must be taken and it used very sparingly as it can take plating right off.  Works great on sooty tailpipes.  Rubber dressing on hoses.  Basically, stop any and all leaks, get the engine clean and then maintain it.  What you see below is pretty much how I received the car and with very little maintenance looks after at least 1000 miles.  150k miles on the engine, 33k since rebuild in 1989.



« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 14:39:15 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

TR

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2008, 14:51:17 »
Michael, John -- Thanks to both of you.  My primary concern is to do no harm to all the new yellow & silver cad plating under the hood.  Sounds like it may not be as delicate as I'd guessed.

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2008, 15:10:28 »
quote:
Originally posted by TR

Michael, John -- Thanks to both of you.  My primary concern is to do no harm to all the new yellow & silver cad plating under the hood.  Sounds like it may not be as delicate as I'd guessed.



You can ruin the nice finish of cad plated parts with strong cleaners.  I strongly suggest you test in an inconspicuous area first.  Natural change of color is normal over time, but chemicals can ruin the finish for good.  The same with abrasive cleaners and polishes, you'll abrade the finish right off if you're not gentle.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 15:11:07 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2008, 17:44:44 »
Tom,

TRUE Cadmium plating--which is what I know you have--is considerably more durable (something on the order of 2x +) than zinc plating.

The trouble is, most people who have had engine bay parts replated have them done in zinc; too many people say you can't get real cadmium plating done anywhere so they go with what they can easily find.  Of course we both know this not to be true, you just have to know where to look.  I've even seen (on more than one occasion, I'm afraid) ersatz engine bay treatments with paints made to look like cadmium, or even just garish gold color paint on the FI lines.  Purists cringe at such stuff, considering that the real thing isn't really that expensive.  The first Cadmium plated part?  $125.00.  The second part? $0.01...

Here's a good article by someone who plates in many kinds of zinc and cadmium: http://www.burbankplating.com/articles.php

I do know that my zinc plated FI lines never looked as nice and bright as Cadmium, and are looking very dull now, in my opinion.  At the time these were done, I had no idea about how or what they would be plated with.  The yellow is mostly gone.  I have not really done much of any cleaning on these, usually just wiping with a damp rag.  Next time around, real cadmium.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 17:45:55 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

TR

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2008, 18:24:32 »
Mike -- It will be at least several months out, but let me know if you want some additional yellow cad plating done.  We missed a couple of pieces, and it'd be sad if you did not avail yourself to that $0.01 price(!).

I'm glad to know the cad plating is not as delicate as I'd assumed.

quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi
I do know that my zinc plated FI lines never looked as nice and bright as Cadmium, and are looking very dull now, in my opinion.  At the time these were done, I had no idea about how or what they would be plated with.  The yellow is mostly gone.  I have not really done much of any cleaning on these, usually just wiping with a damp rag.  Next time around, real cadmium.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 18:25:34 by TR »

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2008, 06:58:49 »
quote:
Originally posted by paulr

Message for thelews.

Have you considered documenting your beautiful car as a template for us to see those little details that are often missing on our cars? Looking at your engine bay is an inspiration. You must be very proud.






I'm willing to photograph specific questionable areas for members.  The credit for the engine bay (and the car) is not mine, but the previous owner of 37 years and member of the forum, Vince Canepa.  I do have all his records and meticulous documentation of work performed and specifications for various rebuilt areas of the car.  Nonetheless, I am proud of the car, it's a real jewel in its present state and its originality unique.  Thanks for the compliment.
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

thelews

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2008, 21:01:01 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

We know you absolutely despise putting water on your car(s) and "wash" them without water.  But like your garage, you are in a small, distinct and I'd suggest, very exclusive minority.  Water?  Works for me; most others, too, I think.




Forgive me Lord, for I have sinned.  I used water on the car today!  But, only on the inner fender wells and wheels and tires.  Prepping for show, I wanted to use a brush to get dirt out of the irregular surface that the undercoating produces inside the fender well.  Also, the disc brake dust was building up on the front wheels.  So, out came the soapy bucket and fresh well water.  I did use my air hose though right after to blow away any excess and get water out of cavities (like around the headlight bucket)!  Can't have it sitting and rusting away a 113 beauty :)

On a side note, my 190 SL has been sitting at a shop getting work done for 7 months.  Needless to say, even though covered most of the time, it's a bit dusty.  No problem.  Went over, used their air gun, blew off the car outside and engine compartment and then used a damp microfibre towel to wipe off.  Almost like it went into the shop and won't require much when she comes home as my second entry into the show.

By the way, if anyone is near the area, the www.milwaukeemasterpiece.com is an excellent show, great selection and variety of cars, only one example of each model.  Club day, the Sat. before the Sun. concours is a fun day too.  Mercedes club is represented.  Sunday Aug. 24.  If the weather holds out like it's been these last few days, it will be a spectacular day at the lakefront.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2008, 21:02:35 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

mdsalemi

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2008, 06:22:57 »
AHA!  I knew you were a closet water user! ;)
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

J. Huber

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Re: Preaching to the Choir
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2008, 08:55:34 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

AHA!  I knew you were a closet water user! ;)


Which is a whole lot better than being a "water closet user"! (as far as washing the car is concerned...
James
63 230SL