Author Topic: Opinions on this 230 please....  (Read 9345 times)

johnshenry

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Opinions on this 230 please....
« on: August 26, 2008, 18:55:56 »
Ok, I have had a fellow VW enthusiast check out this car for me, and took a bunch of pics.  I spoke to him on the phone also.  So I can see the obvious, muffler, small spot of rust inside the right rear arch forward corner, warped wood, worn carpet etc.  Paint and chrome over all look to be pretty nice.  It was repainted by Mercedes probably in the 90s.

He also tells me that it needs a new water pump, the AC does not work, and the gen light stays on when the car is off and drains the battery.  So it has some mechanical issues.  Engine was rebuilt by Mercedes around 2000, at 60k miles, it has 84k now.  Really has not been driven for 6 years or so.  Just started and run a bit.

It has no hard top.

Opinions and even guesses at a fair price?  I value the collective expertise here.  Like I have said, I know vintage VWs very well, but no pagodas.  e-mail me at zarwerks@charter.net if you would like.

Pics of the car are at:

http://www.thesamba.com/temp/67_230SL/

Thanks in advance,

John H

jameshoward

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2008, 03:35:37 »
You can't really tell very much at all from the photos. Certainly not enough to form a view on the car. I'd query the 'Mercedes rebuild' some 20K miles ago on the engine. It looks pretty well worn - from the photos.

There is a ton of info on this site about buying a new car. It's very well worth a good read before you part with any dosh. I wish I did, but I found the site after I found the car. Too bad.

Of the things you mention that is wrong with the car, none are a big problem. If you're familiar with older engines, the water pump is no biggie. Maybe 3 hours. AC would need a specialist I suppose but they're out there in droves. The electrical problem can't be too big as there's nothing too complex on the car.

Rust is probably a big issue, but if you read people's experiences on the site, you'll know that. Getting chrome sorted is v costly. Ask me how I know. Then there's the mechanical side. If the engine was rebuilt as the owner says, it should be fine. I'd be sceptical. Cars that haven't been driven for a long time would probably need new brakes, lines, hoses; fuel tank flushed; lines cleaned; FI pump and inj pump cleaned out (maybe). The radiator looks like it's seen better days also. Note that the doors and bonnet and boot are aluminium do don't worry about those. It's just all the other metal work on the car that rusts.

As for a price, I would say you should be looking in the $10-$13K region for that car given others that come and go on places like ebay in this condition. If you're shelling out much more than that you'll be leaving yourself short for the restoration work, which can be VERY costly.

You don't say what your budget is. That might help people here give you an idea of what you could get for your money.

JH
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

Mark280SL

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2008, 07:32:22 »
I often prefer not to make judgements just on photos but in this case I have a strong gut feeling just from looking at those photos and the comments that you would be buying something that would need a very considerable amount of time and cash spent on it to bring it up to a good quality car.

Of course it totally depends on where you want to go with a car and how much you are willing to spend to get there. If you can get it really cheap (10k or less)and have a pocket full of cash you are ready and willing to spend you may end up where you want and not have a car that's worth a lot less on the market then you invested in it.

If you have the money to fix one and if your goal is to end up with a really nice car, it could be very painful to do it with that car so you probably want to keep looking..... I'd say take a tip from Dionne Warwick and "walk on by"

Mark

johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2008, 07:35:24 »
Thanks for the input.  To address some of the things you brought up:

The previous owner who passed away in '04, and owned the car for probably 20 years, was very meticulous.  I have a binder here nearly 3" thick with every damn receipt for work, notes from phone calls, pictures of tiny imperfections, etc.  Of course that still guarantees nothing, but it would make me believe that the work that was done was done right.  All work was done by a Mercedes dealer.

My general plan/idea at this point is (if I purchase the car) to have it transported to a shop, possibly Gernold at SL Tech, he's a bit over an hour away from me, and have him make the needed repairs and get the car road ready.  I don't want a project, I have a '51 VW Beetle en-resto now, plus a hobby/parts business to run.  From what I have seen on the web, I was hoping to end up with a nice driver in the $15k-$20K range.  For this car, I see probably $1500 in autotransport, maybe a $400-$500 trip out there, and guessing around $2500 for the mechanical repairs  (just a WAG).  Given that, $10k-$12k would seem like a good range for this car.

The car is in kind of a weird situation, the owner lives out near me, and the "caretakers" really have no stake in the car and don't know that much about its history.

As for "what I want", I just want a nice driver, mechanically sound, and an "even patina" car... crystal clear chrome and flawless paint and interior is not necessary.  It will be a car for my wife to follow me around in my Beetles to various car events.  And of course, I don't want to "over invest" in anything.  I am definately planning on having to spend some money on this one if I get it...

Thanks again for the help, still interested in any other opinions....
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 07:38:23 by johnshenry »

Douglas

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2008, 08:22:05 »
IMHO, seems like a promising candidate. I like it when there's lots of documentation about the past. The price range you quoted is appealing. Be aware that the seats were re-done in the late-style Tex (vinyl) fairly recently, as was the top of the dash. The old style Tex is long NLA. Also, those early a/c units are very rare.

Is the car from CA originally? It has a Newport Beach plate on the glovebox? Could explain the seats and dash top being replaced from u/v damage.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Mark280SL

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2008, 13:21:54 »
If you are looking for a driver in the 15-20k range then assuming
you get it at a reasonable price it would certinly be doable, at the end of the day it's all about what makes you happy and what you're willing to have/not have. I tend not to view these cars as something that should be daily drivers but that's just me, I'm sure many will disagree and they certainly have a valid point.


quote:
Originally posted by johnshenry

Thanks for the input.  To address some of the things you brought up:

The previous owner who passed away in '04, and owned the car for probably 20 years, was very meticulous.  I have a binder here nearly 3" thick with every damn receipt for work, notes from phone calls, pictures of tiny imperfections, etc.  Of course that still guarantees nothing, but it would make me believe that the work that was done was done right.  All work was done by a Mercedes dealer.

My general plan/idea at this point is (if I purchase the car) to have it transported to a shop, possibly Gernold at SL Tech, he's a bit over an hour away from me, and have him make the needed repairs and get the car road ready.  I don't want a project, I have a '51 VW Beetle en-resto now, plus a hobby/parts business to run.  From what I have seen on the web, I was hoping to end up with a nice driver in the $15k-$20K range.  For this car, I see probably $1500 in autotransport, maybe a $400-$500 trip out there, and guessing around $2500 for the mechanical repairs  (just a WAG).  Given that, $10k-$12k would seem like a good range for this car.

The car is in kind of a weird situation, the owner lives out near me, and the "caretakers" really have no stake in the car and don't know that much about its history.

As for "what I want", I just want a nice driver, mechanically sound, and an "even patina" car... crystal clear chrome and flawless paint and interior is not necessary.  It will be a car for my wife to follow me around in my Beetles to various car events.  And of course, I don't want to "over invest" in anything.  I am definately planning on having to spend some money on this one if I get it...

Thanks again for the help, still interested in any other opinions....

« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 13:24:51 by Mark280SL »
Mark

johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2008, 14:12:03 »
It would be a "sunny day" driver for my wife, often to follow me to VW events, cruise nights etc.  Hope to "talk turkey" with the owner next day or two we'll see...

But here's some other questions.  Of course my brain has been going non-stop at this point about how I might pull this off.

The car is 2700mi away from me, the seller is about an hour's drive away (complicated situation, don't ask....).  The deal will be made, between me and him, and then I will arrange to get the car here if it happens.  Its all the in-between details that I keep mulling over.

Possibility 1:  Close the deal here, arrange to have a trucking company pic up the car, take it to a shop near me for mechanical work.  I never will have seen the car firsthand before buying (risk).

Possibility 2:  Sign a P&S with the seller, with deposit (either small non ref, or larger but refundable) fly out inspect the car, then get it on the truck home if I still like it, else fly home and keep looking.  My risk is minimum, out only the trip out.  I could also probably find a MB mechanic to look it over while I am out there.

Possibility 3:  Sign a P&S with the seller, arrange for the car to be delivered or picked up by a mechanic near it.  Have him assess it, and possibly make some repairs to just make it minimally driveable (depending on what he finds the condition in) then either get it to a trucking company to be shipped to my house, or..

Possibility 4:  DRIVE it home.  (that would be a fun adventure...!)

I'm leaning towards #2 or maybe #1.  This is not a high pressure sale, and I am expecting the seller to be pretty flexible especially since I have known his father in law for many years. I sense there is some urgency in the family to at least get the car back east.  So maybe I can truck it here sight unseen, and have an "out" clause in the P&S.  Hmmm.

Opinions?

I am pretty encouraged by what I see in those pics.  Once we strike a deal I will probably be asking for local MB contacts near where the car is in any case...

Thanks again for your help, you guys have been great....

JH

mdsalemi

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2008, 15:24:08 »
It is worth the time and effort to get someone you trust to inspect the car.  You stand absolutely nothing to lose in inspecting the car first hand in person, alone or with an MB tech, but you stand to lose an awful lot after investing in the car and its transport if you find a surprise.

My opinion: option 2 with a tech inspection.  The inspection does not necessarily make or break the deal but gives you a good idea of what you are getting into.
Michael Salemi
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Mark280SL

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2008, 18:51:19 »
Ok I can't resist...here is possibility #5 for you.

Not that I would want to talk anybody out of a Pagoda but I just happened to see one of these tonight by chance, I liked it, and since you are a VW guy and want to spend around 20K why not go green at the same time....

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/green_machines/2009_volkswagen_jetta_tdi_diesel_rated_at_41_mpg_highway_starts_at_22_640_car_news

All that said Michael is right.... get it looked at by someone in the know if you're really serious about buying it.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 18:54:10 by Mark280SL »
Mark

johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2008, 20:08:05 »
No thanks.  Besides you simply would not be able to get your hands on one at the dealer now (without paying a $5k-$10K "buyers premium".. don't get me started about VWoA..), I already own and drive an '04 Jetta as a daily driver.  Gas, 2.0l engine, and when I drive it sanely, I get 33mpg.

If I buy an alternative fuel vehicle it will be an electric one...

Robert_F

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 08:55:24 »
Since you are requesting opinions mine are:

You will likely spend much more on that car over time then you now think you will, I would be concerned about the car from what I see and have read.

A big pile of old reciepts for a car that has not been driven for 6 years is not really meaningful, it does not indicate the car is in good shape it indicates you have a lot of old reciepts. If they were all relatively recent and the car has not been sitting for so many years they would be more meaningful. I looked at a car that had 35 years of all kinds of documentation but it was a mess, all kinds of problems, the paper did not tell the real story. Don't get me wrong it's nice to have the paperwork but it doesn't always mean anything.  

I'm also not getting the feeling you really have thought about why you are really buying this car from what I've read here and it seems as if you have not looked at other Pagodas but are fixated on this one car. I may have missed something and mabye you have but if not I'd suggust you look around more before making a decision on spending.

My humble opinions...I wish you good luck in your decision.



johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 09:10:15 »
As someone who has had vintage cars for now 20+ years, I know about (the dangers of) getting "attached" to a car.  In this case, I am not, trust me.  I am also concerned about the "sitting" factor and I know that the old receipts really don't mean much.  But I am attracted to the known history (yes, it was originally purchased and lived its early life in Newport Beach CA, then was taken to Seattle where the most of the work was done and it was driven sparingly.  It has only been in its present location, and probably not driven at all since '04-'06.

My hope is that I can get this car at a decent enough price to be able to be able to address the mechanical issues and still be relatively solvent.  I would rather deal with mechanical issues than rust, rot, bad bodywork, previous hacks, etc.   I am quite surprised at the number of these cars available at relatively decent prices.  The early (split window) VW prices have skyrocketed recently, especially the matching numbers, correct ones.  I bought my '50 in '02 of Sweden and could sell it today and nearly triple my money.  I tend to like older cars, and the 230 has more appeal to me over the (apparently more desirable/expensive) 280s.

Here's another one I was looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230282944619&rd=1

Contrast this car.  One owner, relatively low miles, unmolested, complete and correct.  Recent driver, yes, that is a plus.  But I smell rust issues and think that at its present price of $17k+ its over priced.  Sure you could drive it, but down the road, when it starts falling apart, the only option is a full on resto.

Opinions?

BTW, I am going to "Mercedes Day" at the Lars Anderson Museum in Brookline MA on Sept 7th, and hope to chat with a lot of Pagoda owners there.  Anyone from this forum attending that event???
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 09:18:18 by johnshenry »

jameshoward

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 11:46:19 »
I looked at this car on the net earlier today. I thought it looked pretty unmolested. It seems to have an air of originality about it and it seems to have an original firewall pad in excellent condition. So it could be what it says it is.

It does clearly have rust issues, however. If the bumpers have rusted through, and there's rust coming through at the trim, who knows what lies beneath. But I like the engine compartment. The tach looks a bit defunct and is that a big dent in the hardtop or is it the way the light falls?

It might well be a fair price if it is pretty original.

JH
James Howard
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Douglas

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 12:25:19 »
james,

I think you have your 230SLs mixed up. The one in this thread doesn't have a pad on the firewall at all and doesn't have visible rust in the bumpers. In fact, you can still see nice undercoating on the backside of the rear bumper.

johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2008, 12:28:36 »
Doug, I think he is referring to the one in the eBay link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230282944619&rd=1

I posted below.


(and yes James, the hardtop is dented)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2008, 12:29:22 by johnshenry »

glennard

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 14:53:54 »
quote:
Originally posted by johnshenry

As someone who has had vintage cars for now 20+ years, I know about (the dangers of) getting "attached" to a car.  In this case, I am not, trust me.  I am also concerned about the "sitting" factor and I know that the old receipts really don't mean much.  But I am attracted to the known history (yes, it was originally purchased and lived its early life in Newport Beach CA, then was taken to Seattle where the most of the work was done and it was driven sparingly.  It has only been in its present location, and probably not driven at all since '04-'06.

My hope is that I can get this car at a decent enough price to be able to be able to address the mechanical issues and still be relatively solvent.  I would rather deal with mechanical issues than rust, rot, bad bodywork, previous hacks, etc.   I am quite surprised at the number of these cars available at relatively decent prices.  The early (split window) VW prices have skyrocketed recently, especially the matching numbers, correct ones.  I bought my '50 in '02 of Sweden and could sell it today and nearly triple my money.  I tend to like older cars, and the 230 has more appeal to me over the (apparently more desirable/expensive) 280s.

Here's another one I was looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230282944619&rd=1

Contrast this car.  One owner, relatively low miles, unmolested, complete and correct.  Recent driver, yes, that is a plus.  But I smell rust issues and think that at its present price of $17k+ its over priced.  Sure you could drive it, but down the road, when it starts falling apart, the only option is a full on resto.

Opinions?

BTW, I am going to "Mercedes Day" at the Lars Anderson Museum in Brookline MA on Sept 7th, and hope to chat with a lot of Pagoda owners there.  Anyone from this forum attending that event???


Hi, Expect to be there-617 947 6399.

Douglas

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 15:39:42 »
quote:
Originally posted by johnshenry

Doug, I think he is referring to the one in the eBay link

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230282944619&rd=1

I posted below.


(and yes James, the hardtop is dented)



Oh, I see now. Yes, I agree with James about the rust in that example. You can see that it's all through the inner fenders. You can be virtually assured it's in the floors, rockers, tail panel, trunk floor, etc.

It does, however, still have the original MB Tex on the seats. You can see how it's different from the car you originally posted.

Nonetheless, I would guess the first car is a much better candidate.


mdsalemi

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2008, 09:44:36 »
For what its worth, everyone seems to be afraid of rust but seems not to be bothered as much by mechanical needs.

My car was ready for the crusher when I got it; a non-sense restoration undertaken merely because it was a family legacy.

Based upon my best estimates, ignoring some unnecessary baubles such as the all leather interior, new windshield, etc. there is as much in mechanical restoration as there was in body restoration.  Further to that, the mechanical restoration continued long past when the the body was done.  Tracking down and repairing myriad little things such as broken wires, etc. can be enormously time consuming and also expensive.  Sometimes you simply have to pull some parts swaps to get to the root of the problem.

Keep in mind that the body restoration on my car was quite extensive and included a new nose, tail, hood, and various other sheet metal sundries.  Yes it was good news for K&K.

That does NOT mean go out and find the car with rust and buy it.  It does mean that the entire car must be taken into account, and body work is not necessarily more difficult nor expensive then mechanical work.  In fact, one could argue that any reasonably competent body shop can do the proper work with a little guidance.  Mechanics?  Well, we seem to be all searching for them nearby.

If your "target car" burns oil, has a questionable fuel injection pump, perhaps some rust in the fuel tank, a slipping transmission, and a leaky rear end (hey--throw in a seized caliper, too) but has a rust free California body...add up the mechanical cost of making it all right.  Then compare it to a car that needs some floor work, maybe some rust repair in the usual spots--but otherwise runs great--and you might be surprised.  They'll be closer in cost to make right then you might imagine; which way is anyone's guess and depends on the car of course.  Conventional wisdom might tell you that the body work is more expensive.  I'm here to tell you it isn't always the case, and I have a pile of receipts that justify that assessment.

When an engine rebuild is about $6K, a measurable portion of that a head job, a fuel injection pump rebuild is about $1K, a fuel tank $1K, a rebuilt tranny several thousand dollars, you can easily get the idea that mechanical work isn't cheap. That theoretical car mentioned above could easily top $10K in parts alone; a lot more if you throw in professional labor. If you are doing it yourself you still have the parts prices.  Mechanics earn as much as body men.

Just look at the entire package and take out your calculator.

« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 15:08:19 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2008, 10:20:00 »
Very good points Micheal.  I have always told people that body work and interior work you can get anywhere with the right $$$, but competent mechanical work is another issue.  However if I look at any car with rust issues, I truly believe that it is an "all or nothing" resto that involves pulling the body stripping, and basically making the car take up about 10 times as much space as it would put together, for years+.  28 years in vintage VWs has hardened that philosophy in me.  Any car that has rust in one spot needing repair beyond just strip and paint, has it in many other places.  And for what I want, I have ZERO interest in going down that road.

The IL white 230 on eBay closed for $17,300 this morning.  But I still don't think I could assume that it was significantly better off mechanically than this blue one I am looking at. Sure it was a recent driver/runner, but who's to say it didn't have fuel path problems, slipping tranny, leaks etc?  Of course all that could be (and should be) ascertained before buying. I just didn't have a chance to look at it firsthand before the auction closed.

As for the blue '67, there are indications that it was at least driven a few times over the last 4 years (not 6) and started more frequently.  It has not been sitting untouched for all that time.  Mean anything?  Well maybe, but not much.

That being said, I have entered into $$ negotiations with the seller of the blue '67 to see what I could get it for and I will go from there.  Fully expecting to probably spend several thou on it before it is road ready.

So, 2 more questions for the group.  

1) So what are the bombshell mechanical issues with these cars?  I see Michael quoted some fuel pump rebuilt prices and such.  Is there anything that is stratospherically expensive to fix that would be obvious?  I assume that the entire fuel path and brake system must be fully rejuvenated as needed on a car that has not been driven for a while.   Cooling system as well.  

2) Can anyone recommend a good MB mechanic in the Phoenix area? (Ok, so I let on where the car is now....).  More and more (based on input here) I see the need to have this car mechanically assessed prior to buying.  In fact, I will craft the closing of the deal around that (as opposed to trucking it out here and doing it then).  I did e-mail the president of the local MB club there from their website, but as yet have heard no reply.

Thanks again for the all the help...

JH

mdsalemi

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2008, 10:48:58 »
John,

Well, as you surmised I wasn't talking specifically about any one car; I'm a firm believer in seeing what you buy...

But you brought up another point, and old-timers here have heard it before but I'll tell you:  when I got my car, and started interviewing (in a manner of speaking) potential restorers, each with some 113 experience, to a word they all asked the same question FIRST:  "It hasn't been sitting too long, has it?"

That should tell you something...

My answer should tell you something else too:  "No, not too long.  Just 15 years or so." ;)

...and hence the full restoration.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

johnshenry

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2008, 09:15:31 »
Ok, still beating this path....

Nice chatting with MB folks at MB Day at the Museum of transportation yesterday.  I saw the green 230 that was in Hemmings and whose ad vanished he day I went looking for it resolving to call the seller...  Very nice car.

I also just spent about 20 mins talking with the seller/agent (family member) of the car mentioned in my original post here.  He has come up with a ball park figure, that sounds not too far off from what I was thinking, so I'd like to take the next steps and have the car assessed.

I will go out and see it firsthand, but I want it to be checked out by a MB mechanic in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area.  Ideally, I would  fly out, drive it to a shop (it supposedly is driveable for short distances) and spend the better part of the day with a mechanic going over the car, driving it, etc.  The focus here is purely mechanical assessment.  I can deal with any cosmetic issues, and would be quite happy to drive the car as-is from a cosmetic standpoint.

Less than best case is that I get someone else to get the car to a shop, then fly out and meet with the mechanic, make decision then to buy or not, and if I buy it, maybe deliver it to a trucking company for the trip back east.
 
So, what I REALLY need now, is some guidance on some shops in the Phoenix area.  Please send me a personal message if for some reason you don't want your input posted publicly (that includes the "stay away from" shops..)

Anyone here in the Phoenix/Scottsdale clubs?  Anyone have a contact in those clubs?  I already sent one msg to a club pres there but have not heard back.

Thanks again for the help....

JH

Naj ✝︎

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Re: Opinions on this 230 please....
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2008, 09:45:52 »
Hello, John,
Try Mark Pasarelli:

ranchomerced@msn.com

http://www.ranchomerced.com/

He is in the Scottsdale suburbia...
naj
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 09:47:51 by naj »
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