How much to spend repairing your Pagoda?

[rmmchl]

i agree, and it's about time someone mentioned the  w113 tech guy----------------I guess he is good, but he charges stupid /ridiculous fees that suggest that only he can do it-I heard he charges up to $4000.00 for repair and stretching new fabric on these cars-this isn't rocket science, and these cars are not worth that. find someone else---------He's trying to sell  the $20.00 glass of lemonade-A lot of upholstery shops can do this-----------All you need is the new bolt and screw kits for these frames-any good top shop can puit these tops on for about 200-400 dollars labor------------the new top and seals are pricey-these are just aluminum frames bolted together-big deal--

[rmmchl]

Please let me soften my response a little-I realize that someone like gernold is probably ideal-------If he can make it like new, so be it. The video of how they worked when new , is not how most of them work now. I also know that some of these frames have probably been screwed up by guys not knowing what they were doing-Each frame's needs are different. I just get frustrated by the prices demanded for some of this stuff-If the w113 tech guy  would lower his prices to be more practical, I would even send my frame for him for a good going over. I think he could get a lot more business if the prices were lower. From what he advertises-I don't think the fees he demands are in most of our price ranges. Again-these cars are not gullwings-they are w113's  with an average selling price between $12,000 and $40,000-average being $22,000.00-You have to be real careful about putting too much into these

[66andBlue]

... You have to be real careful about putting too much into these ...

Now that statement is worth an Emmy if not an Oscar!   
Are you talking like an investment counselor who is thinking about his cut? 
Or perhaps like a dentist who is looking into a mouth and is trying to figure out how much the patient or the insurance company is willing to pay? 

[rmmchl]

To 66 and blue-I am thinking like a dentist because I am one, and a good one at that!-I won't advise a patient to put $2500.00 into a tooth that has a limited prognosis and the patient has periodontal problems to boot, and is 89 years old with terminal cancer--------------------------------Be smart------------------sometimes all of us have been guilty of being in a dream world with these cars---------------go buy a 300sl and put $4000.00 in a top adjustment--That would probably be worth it-It's foolish for those of you to think that these are some type of collector cars that will demand the high prices that you think they are worth. Try to sell one---------- It might be harder than you think  -My is an all original pristine 250sl I have owned since 1985. Through all these years of restoring it, I have found that I have gained expertise and wisdom on these cars, and I have " earned" the right to "bad-mouth" some of these guys demanding the crazy fees they demand to fix anything on these cars.-And yes-I have even torn my dash down about 3 times over the years to replace the heater core, heater valve, radio, clock, wood pieces. paint the dash, etc.   I have had all the guages out to restore them-so yes-I have "earned the right to br critical of some things on these "money pits"!!!!

[Peter van Es]

But you know, it's about emotion. If you like the lines of your Pagoda, if you've owned it for a while, if, like you, you have spent blood, sweat and tears over it we sometimes do financially unsound things with our cars just because it feels good.

If you want to do the safe thing, buy a $2M Ferrari. Drive that at full speed into the back of a bus, and you'll never total it. Even if you've done $200K worth of damage to it, it's only 10% of the price of the car. Someone will probably offer you $1.8M to take the wreck off your hands.

Now do that to a Pagoda.... you'll total it and since the total restore cost will be going up to $100K also, if you do it properly, it is not a viable proposition anymore.

So, if money were no object, and we were all "homo calculus", all of us should buy Ferrari 250 GTO's and no one would buy Pagoda's.

Luckily, there are people who preserve Pagoda's. And sometimes it's worth it for someone to spend a little more than economically sound to get theirs in good shape.

In Europe you'll not be able to buy a Pagoda under €20,000. Average Pagodas probably fetch € 30,000 and the top examples by Mercedes-Benz classic center, Kienle or Mechatronik will set you back between € 100,000 - € 140,000. In the US, if the crisis had not been so strong and the housing market had not been affected so badly, you'd see prices creeping up as well... that's what was happening last year too. So I think that ultimately prices will go up in the US too.... and how often don't we read here that someone says I now have to pay $ x for a part, when 4 years ago I could have had it for $ 1/2 x?

That effect alone will drive up prices of good examples. So let your emotion decide, and then check the size of the wallet!

Peter

[Cees Klumper]

On the question of whether the experts are worth their fees - it's simply a question of supply and demand. If you just want to enjoy the car and not bother finding out about the technical details and how you could do things yourself, AND don't want to bother shopping around for good deals from shops that may be almost, or just as good as the known experts, then you are willing to pay a price much higher than other people find reasonable - people who have done the research etc. But from the experts' perspective, if they can charge the fees and enough people are willing to pay them, you can't blame them. I've been a consultant with two of the big international firms and my last hourly rate was about $500. Are there other experts out there who can do the same quality work I can for a lot less? Sure there are, without a doubt. But as the saying goes, 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'.

When I first got my car, now 10 years ago, I paid top-dollar (well, actually it was top-guilder) so I would not have to deal with problems. Turned out there were plenty, and the car did its tour of several noted experts, who charged what I considered to be high fees for not exactly getting the problems solved. So after a while and after I found this group, then on the old Yahoo! discussion forum (thanks Rodd ...) I gathered up the courage to go it alone and figure it out for myself with the help of you all. And it worked - I am now able to do most things myself and, over the past 10 years, have spent less than EUR 1,000 each year on minor and also major repairs & maintenance. I.e. less than my annual garage bill for my daily driver, a modern Volvo. Had I stayed with the expert garages, this would have been at least triple.

So if an expert can reeceive $4,000 for work that you could do yourself, or have done by someone else for a fraction, because some enthusiasts believe it's worth it, then I think that's fine.

[Shvegel]

I think the comments about Gernolds prices are out of line here. I have seen photographs of Gernolds tops under repair in batches so obviously there is a market even at his prices.

Speaking as a mechanic who works for someone who is not only able to afford me(I make over twice the going rate) but glad to have my services there are very few people who are truly gifted out there and their work is worth alot. I am more of a making big things happen in a short period of time sort of mechanic but I truly respect people like Gernold who have taken the time to learn a skill and do that repair to the highest standards time and time again.

For the record "all you need is a bolt and screw kit"  Is like saying all you need is a dremel tool  some Silver and Mercury.

You can get a top rebuilt by anyone who is willing to take it on but if I wanted the best possible job I would call Gernold. What you are paying for from him is artistry. Not only are you paying for him to work on your top but you are also paying him to walk away from your top when things are not going well, take a deep breath and start again.

Gernold has made a name for himself not because he is the fastest or the cheapest at what he does but because he is the best at what he does. Isn't that exactly what this world needs more of?

[66andBlue]

It is interesting how the $4,000 has morphed into 40x $100/hr.
So this is just his labor and the frame is free? No, that is what he sells it for, repaired and functional!
Certainly cheaper than a new one from SLS at Euro 9,650 or $14K.
Try to find a used one now and what you'll see is this: eBay Item number: 290344709518
Guess what,  the buy-it-now price is: $4000!  From whom would you buy the frame, a dismantler or from someone with proven expertise?
Take home lesson? Open, close and store your soft top as recommended and most importantly, treat it gently!
It may last longer than your second set of original teeth! 

[bogeyman]

Shvegel:
I respect your position on this topic. I believe there is definitely a place for a professional analysis on these cars and that those who have the knowledge/experience are surely worth what they charge. They couldn't survive if they weren't.  I just don't think the soft top is one of the mechanisms that warrant that experience or cost.  There is a plethora of information here about areas that might be above most of our abilities to actually do, whether because of expertise or specialized tools, but many of us attempt to anyway.  The operation/servicing of the soft top is one of the areas we should all be able to fix when necessary - they aren't that complicated. But there is a dearth of information here about actually correcting the various malfunctions we encounter.  I just think with a little focus we can come up with a series of corrections so people won't have to have a belt placed under the frame or whatever other temporary fixes many of us put up with continually.  I can see thousands to rebuild an engine or injection pump - they need many specialized tools and expertise, but a soft top?  

[thelews]

Mine works as designed with no issues and I experienced the rear section getting stuck in the boot.  My fault, of course, very early on with the car after buying.  As I recall, I relowered the top completely into the boot and then pushed even further to make the rear section snap in or slipped my hand underneath to make it snap in.  Then it lifted out perfectly and has worked perfectly ever since.  This is a 42 year old frame, that has never been restored, with a 34 year old top.  Take care of them, operate them properly and they will last and operate properly almost forever.

[hauser]

Well said Alfred!!  Just wait til the subject is the cost of chrome plating !  The $ 4K may not look so bad after all.  

[Kenneth Gear]

I too agree with Alfred.  I have learned the hard way about spending momey two or three times over on the same problem with supposed experts who fall short of a successful repair.  The tops these cars are tricky and not everyone can replace a top - not even shops who specialize in tops.

I had overheating issues with my car for years and brought it to several shops who held themselves out as experts with no success and it added uo to a LOT of money.  I finally decided I had enough and sent it to SLtech.  That was 2 years ago and the car has not overheated since,  Yes, I paid a premium but it was well worth it.

When my soft top frame needs fixing there is only one place its going!

And no I don't own my car as  an investment and I don't have an illusions that its in the same class as a 300sl but I love driving it and owning it and want a hassle free owenship experience and to get that you need expertise and I am willing to pay a bit extra to get it.

[hauser]

Hi Ken  Did you go with the extra row radiator to solve the overheating?  I had discussed this with Gernold and had recommended this radiator upgrade.

[abe280SL]

Boy, this could be a touchy subject.  Because of high prices and the fact that my old mechanic is no longer available as well as difficulty finding ones where I live....I have learned to do alot of fiddling around and investigating mechanical/electrical problems when they arise.  When all else fails...hopefully you have someone you can trust fix the mess.
Recently, I had a bmw 3.0CSI restored, but they had problems with the engine running at high rpms.  I gave the okay to have the car looked at by bmw expert that deals with CS and 2002s.  $300 bucks for point change and timing. Problem was that when I brought the car home...I had problems at low rpms.  I decided to change the plugs...to find out
that 2 PLUGS I COULD REMOVE WITH MY HANDS!!!! After replacing plugs, cables, redoing the timing all is well now.
So, what is my point....if you find someone you really trust and works well...pay up, because the next expert maybe the the brother of the mechanic that fixed my bmw.
abe

[Benz Dr.]

I've read and re-read this thread several times and I'm still not sure what it's all about.

1) I don't think anyone got cheated or received shoddy work.
2) Gernold is fairly well respected around here from what I can tell, so I'm not sure it's about him either.
3) There seems to be some agreement that experts should be paid for their work.
4) Some experts get a lot of money for what they know or what they can do but again, it doesn't really seem to be about that either....

So, what is it anyway?
Is it a soft top frame that's restored for 4K or is it a frame with new soft top installed?
Is it a great deal or is it an OK deal?
Does it even matter?
And, more importantly, if you don't like someones prices, then don't deal with them.




Have we become so bored from talking about cars for the last several years that we find delight in picking on people who aren't members of this site?
 The rules are, ' you can't pick on each other around here, '  yet we can pick on others with impunity who aren't here.
 The rules say,'' If you wouldn't say it to someone in person - then don't say it here on the site, '' and yet we can say whatever we want about anyone not on the site ( within reason of course ) and everyone seems to think that's just peachy keen.

It's time to re-think the way things are done around here. In my humble opinion, it would be folly not to do so.

[Kayvan]

My take is its frustration.....of SL ownership/$

Most will reply it comes with the territory, read tech, learn, and try a DIY.


Gernold is a nice guy, and if a newbie was in a real bind I think a phone call would get some tips (ie, take two measurements at these frame posts, or measure angle here), to verify if its distorted or beyond DIY.

Thats been my experience with him.


Otherwise a put up/shut up reply is order as in: if you dont have the mechanical skills or if you dont have the wallet, then bite the bullet and pay up.


Open dialogue in general reveals more answers......I am not a fan of heavy moderating.....

[dseretakis]

By the way, Gernold may not be a member here but he does routinely read threads on this forum.  He is a rarity in the automotive field willing to spend hours of his time on the phone with people he has never met and advising them on how to fix their SLs.  Who is paying him for this?

[Peter van Es]

With regards to the behaviour etiquette in "real cars... real people", we intend to encourage people to treat each other civilly. Just like in real life, we cannot avoid that occasionally people will misbehave, swear at one another, or have a fight.

On the site we can remove offending messages -- but rather than have a heavy hand in moderating, we prefer for people to correct one another, as has happened in this thread. If the moderators deleted the message or the content you would have found offending, you would not have know whether you agreed or disagreed with that person.

So the Board of the Pagoda SL Group has decided that a light touch is all we apply when moderating. We do not go around preventing people from making mistakes. The opinions expressed on this forum are the opinions of the person expressing them, not of the Pagoda SL Group.

Does the Board of the Pagoda SL Group or the moderators have a duty to police this forum? No we don't. We just have a duty to try and make our site a civil place. But we can't guarantee it. Just like in real life.

So if you don't like someones post, or opinion, store that in your mind. Ignore him/her. If the post is offensive, then report it to the moderators using the 'Report to moderator' function.

Peter

[Benz Dr.]

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a fan of heavy moderating either. If people want to pound each other up around here about stupid little things, have at it, as long as their members of the site. However, it can be very damaging if high profile types go at it, and it goes on forever. This often leads to people taking sides and the two groups split the club down the middle. Is that what you would want to happen around here? I doubt that, right?

Most people view this site as being the club, it's not. It's owned by the club and is just another web site about cars of which there must be thousands. There are a few rules around here but it appears that they're not heavily enforced - I might have a different take on that...

The two things that will really fracture a club are major fights between members and when people use the site or club as a launch pad to mount their own personal attacks or slurs on people who are not members or part of the club. Let it be you, or some friend of yours, the place you do business with, or anyone you know or like and it kind of becomes personal, doesn't it? I know all about the free speech thing but you can't yell FIRE! in a crowded theatre when there is no fire. Even free speech has limits and responsibilty.

If I could wish for only one thing, it would be that the club adopt a scrict policy about such things.  Having policy on this is much better than the damage that could be done by having nothing at all. The respect that will be lost for this club, both internal and external, and the time that will get wasted trying to fix the mess that's sure to come, when we could have been be doing far better things, will most likely never be undone if we don't act.

[glenn]

Long live PPP - Persnickety Pagoda Persiflage. ..

[Peter van Es]

The two things that will really fracture a club are major fights between members and when people use the site or club as a launch pad to mount their own personal attacks or slurs on people who are not members or part of the club.

If you see this happening in a post... then use the Report to Moderator function.

Peter