value of a 67 230SL?

[joes]

Hello all,

I am relatively ne to this forum but I am on it very freqently now.  I think I need help with this addiction.  Anyway I am actively looking for a Pagoda and need some advice from anyone that would care to chime in.  I have not decided on which model 230,250,280 and dont really know which way to go.  This will be a weekend car and my wife will be driving it as well. 

I have seen a very nice example just the other day owned by a genleman who is the original owner.  He drove me around town in the car for a short while and it seemed to run rough at low speeds but then went well and smooth at higher speeds.  It has had a nice body resto/paint from what I can see and the interior is pretty original-probably an 8/10.  The exterior has been repainted in the original colour - metalic red (was this avail then?) and the interior is cream mb tex.

Can anyone please help me determine what a car like this is worth?  I have looked at ebay but the numbers are all over the place.  The owner is a very nice guy and I dont want to offer a price that may insult him but I am on a budget as well.  I do not receive any market letters so it difficult for me to guess at a price.  I know that 280's are fetching more than the 230's.  Should I wait and get a 280Sl instead?

Any insight would be great.  Thanks in advance,
Joe
jsaraceni@trebnet.com


1967 230SL
Orig owner
4 speed manual trans
Storage for 9 yrs
Restored about 3-4 years ago and looks very good although I have not had it up on the hoist yet
110k miles
No rust that i can see
Oil leaks noted on garage floor
Both tops, new soft top
Orig colour (metallic red) not a scatch on it, cream interior about an 8 out of 10
Not orig radio
Orig seats, carpet, cracked steering wheel
runs rough at first and didnt start up right away

[Peter van Es]

This thread extensively discusses 230 vs 250 vs 280 SL: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8495.0

The long and short... buy the best example of the car that you can afford, worry about the type later.

To learn about data cards, originality, colours etc check the Technical Manual: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/Start

To read about purchasing, read this: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/Start

If you want to get a good idea of the value, note that there are huge price differences between US/Canada and European prices. Do post pictures, including good ones of the engine bay, the underside of the car, and details of the chrome. I'm sure people will chime in.

If you'd like to find members in your area, go to the memberlist, sort by location, and find Canadian members:

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=mlist;sort=location;start=0

Note that the good Benz Dr. is in your area. He's a noted expert and you could hire him for a pre-purchase inspection.

Peter

[joes]

Thanks for all the great info Peter.  I will certainly go through it.

Unfortunately I dont have any pics of the car.  The description I wrote is just from a 20 minute visual inspection.  If I pursue the car I will get a prof to look at it in detail.  This will depend on what the Ballpark value is.  15-20k, 20-25k, 25-30k etc.

tx again.

[thelews]

Well, you can take a look here to see what is being asked for some and what others have sold for.

www.motoringinvestments.com  Go to Mercedes

[MichaelB.]

I will take a shot at this.

The 230 is a very pure drive. Lite, fun to rev up, lively, I like the drive better than the later 280.  And 1967 was a very rare year too.
Original owner is a plus. Always neat to have that history.
The manual trans is a great combo with the 230 engine. Another plus.
In storage? Was it well done storage (still pampered) or ignored? If it was good storage then plus.
Restoration/Not looked under it yet- Best of luck there. Original seems to be the hot ticket lately in the car market, but Its only original once.
110k miles. Not bad. A plus.
No rust yet seen. Best of luck again. Thorough look over is past due.
Oil leaks. Minor leakage from a car that has been stored is common. A leak on a car that is used a lot is not a plus.
Both tops = plus. New soft top is okay too. But a good original would be a plus.
Great original colors. Plus
Not original radio. Fix that. Get an original and move that into a plus.
If the car has been "restored" then why the cracked wheel? I will assume the carpet & seats are good though. Plus
Runs rough at first... Negative. The injection on these can be tricky (read: pricey) so watch out swimming in that deep pool.

If you end up finding rust then this car is a possible high teens to low twenties. But if the car is found to be rust free than by all means don't insult the man with less than high twenties. If the car had gone its full life without any needed restoration and the car came complete with full documentation then this would be a whole different story. I have watched quality unrestored examples go for strong money and see no reason why that will change in the future. Nevertheless a strong repainted driver like this example is still a valuable car & I am certain you would enjoy it.

[Flyair]

Hi
the choice is always between two sides. On one, a pure collection car, which would please everybody and may even win some competitions for oldies but goldies, but you might be scared of using too often in order to preserve its ideal state
On the other side, a car you could to use for yourself - if not everyday, at least whenever you feel like driving it.
Quite rarely a car of this age can offer both without damaging one side of its usage.

And be careful, with a Pagoda you take great risks to become an unconditional addict . As I said elsewhere, it is not a car, it's a way of life
have fun
Stan

[joes]

Hi Guys,
ok I confess that I am already an addict and I donot even own one yet!

Michael B, A+ for your simple and to the point assessment.  Thanks for taking the time to give me your input, much appreciated.

[joes]

Update for anyone who may be able to help!

Still looking for an honest no issues car and I happened to come across the car that I saw about 3 weeks ago on this classic care site.  It has some decent pictures and I wanted to get your opinions on what you see.  Th owner is a very nice man and says that he had it professionaly restored about 3-4 years ago and has a dvd to prove the work.  by looking at some of these pictures I have my doubts on whether the job was done 100% correct.  (see interior and underbody).

Any help or comments would be great.  Thanks in advance!
Joe.

the pics are viewable at this link: 

http://bramclassauto.com/showvehicle.php?action=show&id=1065

[MichaelB.]

If your real serious this may be the car for you:

http://www.parkplaceltd.com/inventoryDisplay.aspx?s=used_detail&year=1964&make=Mercedes-Benz&model=230SL&inv=282&vin=11304212001185&total=15&pos=15&current=1&size=50

I saw it in duPont registry at Park Place Ltd. It seems to be a strong example of a great car. Much stronger than that red '67.

[w113dude]

Joe,

Here is my 2 cents,

It all depends how far you want to go with this! If you are looking for good driver this will defiantly do the job, if you are going to become an addict and restore it like some of us on this forum this car will take some work.
 "professionally done" is a very subjective term, to the current owner this may look like adequate job but to many who have had their car restored down to every nut and bolt is completely different story.

Either way you'll be driving a world class car that will turn heads at every corner & I think the asking price should be $18K

Hope this helps!

[ctm14]

One observation is that the drivers side headlight assembly has been replaced but not the passenger.  I would think this indicates some body work on that side otherwise both would have been updated if due to the plastic yellowing.

[sjiatrou]

The '64 230sl in Michael Bs post looks nice and seems to have a very low number (1185) but I think $39K is a bit high for this model especially with the incorrect bumpers and tail lights.  I've kept a bit of an eye on the market and most of the excellent examples of the early 230SLs go for under $30K. I think after that you're not getting any more bang-for-the-buck.  Above $30K you start getting into decent-to-nice range of the 280SLs.    Here's a link to some pix my  car #1515 (including some rough spots that still need fixin')  

http://www.flickr.com/photos/18813799@N04/sets/72157622518867062/

Bottom line:  A GREAT CAR and a blast to drive, especially down Highway 1 along Big Sur!

[KevinC]

To me, the red car looks okay topside but seems shaky underneath with a lot of red over-spray (indicating a poorly prepped pait job) and additional rough patches. I would steer clear. If you study some of the previous suggestions and personally look at as many cars as you can for comparison, you will end up with the 113 of your dreams. Check out www.mercedesheritage.com for other cars to view.

[joes]

Hello all,

Very informative comments from all of you which is why I love this forum.

A few years ago I bought my very first toy.  It is an early 911 and love driving the car as often as I can.  It is a decent example of driver quality but as I look back for about $5,000 I could have had a much better example not needing as much work or money.  I will try not make the same mistake again with the Pagoda.  Truth is the pickings are slim up here in the North country so it's hard to see the cars in person or even test drive them.

W113Dude, I think your assessment of value is pretty close to where I was thinking.  I think his asking price of 35k is way off as the car seems to have some issues.  Si I will keep looking then and hopefully the right car will come up.

Thanks everbody for chiming in and giving me their humble opinions!
best,
Joe.

[CraigD]

Joe (or anyone...)

If you are interested in the white 230SL at Park Place in the post from MichaelB, let me know.  I could go see it for you... it's about 2 miles from my house.  I may stop by and see it anyway... it's fun to see all the great cars there.

Craig

[MichaelB.]

The '64 230sl in Michael Bs post looks nice and seems to have a very low number (1185) but I think $39K is a bit high...

Steve, I think your selling the 230 short at that lower price level you mention. The 230 can be considered as one of the best, and when mated to the manual trans it is pure driving - and the true essence of what Mercedes-Benz had in mind when they built the car. The 280 may have a larger bore engine but for me the 113 models lost some of the charm as it progressed along its production cycle. Early simplicity and balanced performance makes the 230 a winner for me.

Your 230 is just the kind of gem I like to see.

Nevertheless in my travels within my automotive community I am commonly seeing the full 113 range appreciate, and you will need to get use to the prices (like this 1964) as there is no reason why they should be any lower. Fantastic import cars (with originality a plus these days) will always demand a premium - but they should be a real pleasure to own & experience.

[sjiatrou]

I would love to see the price of the 230SLs  go up!  I think it's a great car with a lot of style and personality (more so than the later model 113s.)

[Jazen]

Joe
From the pictures it looks like there is rust under the front floor pans.  You can see the metal "peeling" a bit, give a bit of a press on them and will feel it give.  It looks just like my front floor pans, which are rusted through.  Body work=$.
Plus, the ad says the engine is 2.8 liter, should be closer to 2.3?  If it's a 230?
Caveat emptor.

[Andres G]

Hello Joe,

Welcome to the forum. It has been incredibly useful for me at the time of my research prior to buying my SL and it continues to be as I tinker around with it.

I bought my car almost one year ago and have seen and driven no less than 30 examples before I made my decision. Here's my POV on the red car you brought up.

I think the biggest plus about this car is the first owner... this gives you a car with a full history (hopefully one that tells about pampered treatment, full maintenance records and capable mechanics) and something to work with in order to determine the real shape the car is in.

Unfortunately, there is one common factor to absolutely ALL W113 SL's... that is: RUST. It's not a matter of if it has rust, but rather where is it. From the looks of the pictures posted, I'd be suspicious of at least a bit of rust on the footwells and trunk area to begin with... check also the rear wheel arches and the inside of the front quarter panels. The paint job looks cheap and quick, which makes you wonder why someone who kept the car in such good shape and for such a long time would allow it to be worked on by a sub-par mechanic or body shop. The answer is usually along the lines of "I'm ready to part with the car, so I really didn't care all that much".

The interior looks nice and I would say that for the year the car is and the color combination, you are looking at a very nice example. If the engine runs OK aside from the roughness at low engine speeds, you should still consider a significant amount to get this job sorted out (I would suggest you agree with the seller that he gets this done before you purchase the car - but be careful of what I mentioned before about people ready to let go of their toys...

All in all, and based on the description you gave us and the pictures provided and assuming there is only partial and repairable rust on the car, I am willing to say the car should fall in the $18K-$23K range. Definitely, 35 is high even for a car with no rust, mainly due to the poor paint job and the alterations to the car's original details.

Good luck and keep hunting
Andres G

[cascadia]

I've looked over the white 230SL from Park Place in person, it was at an Bonhams auction last September that I attended.  The car has very little to fault, the restoration work was top notch, a really nice car.  I bid it up to 32 then dropped out, it went up to 34, no sale.  I think 39K will be tough to get in today's market.
http://www.parkplaceltd.com/inventoryDisplay.aspx?s=used_detail&year=1964&make=Mercedes-Benz&model=230SL&inv=282&vin=11304212001185&total=17&pos=17&current=1&size=50

[joes]

Hello all,

First of all I want to thank all the members of the forum who have been so kind and helpful with my search.  This group is outstanding and the camaraderie is wonderful!!

UPDATE: 
I have been to see the red 67SL that I mentioned for the second time but this time I was looking more closely thanks to all of you.  Body numbers, signs of originality, rust etc.  I crawled under the car and found out that the car's floors are totally rusted.  My best guess is that the frame needs major work as well.  Leaks both at the diff and under the engine.  Incorrect firewall padding, repaint was done in a diff colour than the original and many more other items that I won't get into.

This car was depicted as a restored car but clearly the word restored is up to interpretation.  This car was repainted but not restored.  Much mechanical and body work will be needed to sort this car out.  Also, I find it hard to believe that the original owner would not have all service records on the car.  Obvious signs that it was not maintained and the next owner will have to spend big money to get it right.

So I  have learned a lot in the process but I AM GOING TO PASS ON THIS CAR.

I am still excited about SL ownership but will be patient and wait for the right car.  I may have to up the anti but in the end it may be a wiser move.  As many of you have said and from I have heard in the past "buy the best example you car afford"

Thanks again for all your help and please keep me in mind if you come across anything that may be good for me.

best regards,
Joe

[Mike Hughes]

Don't worry, do your homework and check out the ones that interest you - your patience will ultimately be rewarded.  I waited for 14 years to get the right Pagoda...