Author Topic: Ouch! $200,000 Fine...  (Read 4396 times)

mdsalemi

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Ouch! $200,000 Fine...
« on: December 03, 2009, 18:43:21 »
Over the years, I've talked about various cleaning compounds.

The secret elixir of the car wash industry is Hydroflouric Acid.  It is almost magical in its actions, but one of the nastiest compounds known to man.  It is an essential ingredient (albeit in dilute form) in many OTC wheel cleaners.  It is also used as Ammonium Biflouride.  One of the reasons it is so nasty is that it will go through the skin, and eat away your bones without you feeling it, and then it will kill you.  In the car wash industry, it is always mixed with another acid such as Sulfuric or Hydrochloric, not only to increase the intended action but also so that if you get it on your skin you will feel it!  I only used it to clean my walls every year or two, as nothing else would get the grime off.  I did this in a full bunny suit with breather.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_bifluoride

This came in my inbox today: http://www.carwash.com/news.asp?N_ID=70062

Ouch.

For those interested, the way to tell if your car wash is using one of these compounds is if your car gets unusually clean with unusual little action.  Also, if the concrete floor of the car wash looks eaten away, that's another sign.  When I first got car wash insurance for the property, there was a questionaire, and the first question they asked was "Do you use HF or Ammonium Biflouride compounds in any of your car wash activities?".  I didn't know what the stuff at the time but figured it was nasty!!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 18:46:29 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

al_lieffring

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Re: Ouch! $200,000 Fine...
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 19:57:46 »
My dad had a 67 Sedan DeVille (it was new at the time) that he and the Robo engineers used as a test mule. It would often get washed 25 times a day. One day the chemical engineer mixed up a batch of soap that got the car cleaner than anything they had ever tried. I think  they may have used HF. They ended having to replace all the glass in the Caddy because the acid etched the glass to where the car could not be driven at night.

There was also a tank in the equipment room full of acid I think that may have been HF used in the ion exchange (Robo Rinse) water purifyer, but that acid did not actually get sprayed out onto the cars.

Nate

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Re: Ouch! $200,000 Fine...
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 22:08:41 »
Now I know why my hands were always burning after cleaning the brake dust off my old man's Mercedes growing up.  The MBZ wheel clearner (sold at your dealer) in the '80s was some pretty potent stuff...
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Andres G

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Re: Ouch! $200,000 Fine...
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 00:35:02 »
Michael,

Would HF have any visible effect on something like those fake chrome (shiny plastic) gutters and strips on modern cars? When I moved to the US 5 years ago I bought a beautiful Audi A6 V8. The car had some chrome on it (particularly the trim around the windows and bottom of the trunklid) and after some repetitive use of the drive through touchless car wash, this chrome began to stain and I was unable to get it clean - EVER.

Your comment here makes me wonder... too bad it's dark outside, but I will definitely go over there tomorrow to check out the concrete floors.

Andres


mdsalemi

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Re: Ouch! $200,000 Fine...
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 17:35:57 »
Andres,

It is quite possible that this is the case.  HF by itself has little effect on plastic but does dissolve glass, and will attack metal too.  The fake chrome you talk about is actually (in most cases) vapor deposited aluminum covered with plastic.  I have seen more affect on plastic from the caustic products than the acid.

Here is how it is typically used in a touchless car wash.  If you get a deluxe wash with 2 soap passes, the first pass is a low-ph (acid) soap designed to specifically cut through the grime on the glass and trim.  Its action is almost instant; it is a reaction.  If you only have one soap pass, it is with all certainty a hi-pH product.

The second pass is the hi-ph (caustic) soap.  Hi-pH is normal for detergent--be it the kind you wash your hands with, dishes, or clothes.  This 2nd pass does two things: first, it must neutralize the acid from the first pass.  It then must have enough residual strength to remain hi-pH in order to cut through the dirt on the rest of the car body.  This takes some time, and the industry calls it dwell time or soak time.  Then comes the high-pressure rinse, followed by any waxes or other things you may have purchased.

If you think that is a bit tricky to balance, you are right.  You have to maintain a balance of acid/alkalinity in the products, maintain dilution; and you had to measure such with titration kits.  Then you also had to measure pH on the car with test strips.  Yes, that's running into the wash with test paper after soap application and before high pressure rinse, watching out for moving arms!  Even when your titrations and pH were on target, the effects were all changed by temperature, water quality, and seasonality.

I washed nearly 15,000 cars a year in my touchless (sold the car wash last year) most with out issue.  Every now and then I'd come across the most peculiar things--cars that simply would NOT come clean without friction, no matter what you put on them.  In one case, a regular customer's windshield got this haze on it that would NOT come off.  The glass had to be buffed out itself! (thank goodness the owner was a detailer else I would have paid!)  Had seen that only once; it was clearly some chemical reaction with something on the glass.

I used at first, a glycolic acid based product that was very good.  Problem was it was not THAT much better than traditional acid products (but 2x the price), so I switched to a traditional phosphoric-acid based first step product.

Remember I said that the first step--the acid--was used for glass and trim?  Have you heard that old "wive's tale" about using Coca-Cola to clean your windshield?  Read the ingredients.  Phosphoric Acid. ;)

When examining the car wash floor, understand that all acids will etch concrete.  So you kind of have to compare it with others to know what is normal etching damage from safe acidic soaps, and what is extensive damage from HF or Ammonium Biflouride. http://www.carwash.com/articleprint.asp?print=1&IndexID=4230101

A mildly-soiled car that gets washed regularly will get about 90% clean in the touchless wash; the rest of the 10% is generally loosened and will come off with a hand dry.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV