Author Topic: pinion adjusment?  (Read 8712 times)

xcashewx

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pinion adjusment?
« on: March 08, 2010, 05:09:38 »
ive been dealing with this clunking noise for a while now, ive finally had it.
i recently replaced all rear axle bushings, and properly hung the exhaust just to make sure that wasnt the problem. all the u joints are snug, but my next guess is the pinion. ive checked the oil and there is no metal shavings in it, but the axle does have around 200k on it. my thought was that the pre load of the pinion was lost and its causing a gap between the teeth and the gear, thus creating the clunck noise when accerating quickly, or when switching from drive to reverse. any other opinions on this? im just hoping an axle overhaul is not necessary.

Dash808

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010, 06:51:02 »
Jeeze xcashewx, you've run into some bad luck lately (no pun intended).   Here's to a speedy recovery!
Chan Johnson
'67 250sl
Napoli Italian Euro

Bang Bang Booogie!

ja17

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010, 13:40:59 »
Hello,

You may  have a worn pin hole in the main spider gear casting. The hole for the pin can wear oval and cause a clunking action.  Check the information on the site on the 3.27 axle conversion.  The problem is a lot more common on the 3.27 axles, but can happen on the others sometimes.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

JosephBach

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010, 00:19:32 »
would it be better to try and fix it, or just buy a complete axle?i really dont have time to pull off the axle and overhaul it.
but i found a local complete axle w/ 4.08 ratio for $225, but needs a new rubber boot. gears seem to be tight

ja17

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010, 01:37:39 »
Hello Joseph,

Yes, I was going to suggest finding a good used unit if the ratio is the same as yours.  Those original gear ratios are fairly inexpensive to come by since many owners are converting to 3.27 units. The price is right and you will have a whole axle of spare parts! I think I would be tempted to just use the split axle boot for now and you will not even have to dis-assemble the axle.  Latter you can do a complete re-conditioning of the original if you like. 

Is your original also a 4:08 ?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 01:42:08 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

xcashewx

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2010, 14:34:57 »
Yes it is. Although it has drum brakes, i'm not positive but the axle I found may be discs, are they compatible with a 230?

graphic66

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2010, 16:53:28 »
I just did a drum to disc changeover using a rear axle from a 250SL in my 230SL. It is a big job contrary to some opinions. You need a new master cylinder, a rear brake proportioning valve and mount; This needs to have holes drilled into the trunk floor and be mounted above the rear axle and is very expensive, all brake lines and the hose from the proportioning valve to the calipers; depending on the condition of the donor axle, but the hose should be replaced in any case, you may need calipers rotors and brake pads, again depending on the axle condition, I would replace the pinion input seal and check the pinion preload, this requires an inch pound dial reading torque wrench [about $100.00 used on ebay] a clicker type wrench wont work, and a very special socket for removing the pinion nut, some here have had success making one but my axle was on so tight the homemade wrench didn't work, and even with the $90.00 socket I had to put my Snap On puller on to the pinion flange and position the puller over my socket wrench to hold it onto the nut as I tightened it as you cannot use an impact to tighten it to get the proper pinion pre load. All the rubber pieces should be replaced and the the split boot also replaced. It is a real big job according to Doctor Dan to separate the axle tube to put on the one piece boot so I used the split boot with success. It is a good time to replace the axle output seals and axle bearings also.
   You can just bolt the axle up in there and use all the old stuff, but most of these are 40 plus years old and all the rubber stuff is shot. And you absolutely must have the proportioning valve and master cylinder. I also completely cleaned and painted the axle, many many hours just doing that. This turned into a major job and even having the proportioning valve from the donor car it was very expensive also. Just the special tools cost quite a bit. Again you can just put in the axle and hope for the best. Remember to fill the axle with gear oil while the car is level on the ground with the wieght of the car on the tires as you can overfill it with the axles drooping. Also be very careful not to let the axle tubes swing down hard as you can crack the casing where they hit, very easy to ruin your axle that way.   
  You also need to make an alignment tool to center the axle on the final installation. Also be sure to unhook the rod that goes from the axle to the frame on the right side, these get bent often by dropping the axle with it hooked up, this rod also has four rubber mounts, two on each end even though parts blowups show that the mount to the frame only has one big donut, it has two, one hidden in the frame.  That rod centers the axle by moving the rod, make sure that is all freed up and moves easily so when you get it back together you can loosen the lock nuts and turn the rod from the end with a straight slot screwdriver to move the axle side to side. There is way more to the job, do some searches here.     

twistedtree

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 00:48:24 »
You mentioned replacing the various rubber bushings, but did that include the center hanger that mounts to the front center part of the trunk?
Peter Hayden
1964 MB 230SL
1970 MB 280SL
2011 BMW 550xi

tel76

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 08:27:47 »
Do not be put off replacing your boot with the complete one,if you have the axle out it is not difficult,you do not require any special tools.
If you are renewing your pinion oil seal you do not require the expensive torque wrench mentioned above,all you need is a $10 spring balance and a piece of string.
How do i now? I have just done it twice. 
Eric

DavidBrough

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2010, 13:12:49 »
I purchased a beam type inch pound torque wrench from a bicycle shop which was only a few pounds and is calibrated from zero, most are 1/4 drive so you will need a couple of reducers to go from your socket to the wrench but it works very well.

graphic66

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2010, 13:58:44 »
The beam type wont really work as you need to spin the pinion and get a reading. The dial gauge has a tell tale needle to show the maximum torque that you look at after spinning. I have an inch pound beam wrench and it didn't work for me. The scale and string method should work fine if you set it up correctly. I like tools and figured I had gone so far into the axle rebuild why hold back now.
  And yes, first check the big rubber piece that the axle hangs off of in the trunk, that is a likely culprit.
  The more I drive my car now the more I like the disc brakes. A very nice upgrade from the drums.

xcashewx

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2010, 19:28:05 »
Yes I have replaced the upper diff mount in the trunk, which helped a little.
But the clunk only happens on rapid acceleration/deceleration, or when switching from drive to reverse

how do you go about the spring balance method?

jeffc280sl

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 19:53:51 »
Here is one method for setting the preload.

http://www.bernardembden.com/xjs/diff/index.htm

Have a look at JA17's video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6365474313884505435&hl=en#

About 3 minutes into it Joe describes and shows a problem with the differential and spider gear shaft. Unfortunately this is most likely the cause of your problem.  My experience with pinion gears indicates a whinning versus clunking noise. 

There is no way to inspect the diff and spider gear shaft without removing and disassembling the axle.  It's a fairly big job with a lot of project creep potential.  While your in there you might as well do this and that kind of stuff.

Good Luck!

xcashewx

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2010, 04:48:59 »
after watching joes video it seems that i have the problem with a worn casting. because when i have one side jacked up there is a significant amount of play in the wheels with the driveshaft stationary.
i wouldnt mind taking apart the differntial, but would would be a cost friendly way to repair the casting?

tel76

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2010, 09:11:59 »
Spring Balance Method.

  1 - Obtain a 0-10 lb spring balance from your local hardware shop and a length of string.
  2 - If you are doing the work in-situ or with axle removed the axle tubes must be horizontal and both wheels free to rotate(no brakes binding)
  3 - With the prop: shaft disconnected Tye the end of the string into one of the bolt holes to act as an anchor point,
  4 - Wind the string around the flange several times, do not overlap the string as this gives a false reading,
  5 - Connect string to spring balance and pull the spring balance smoothly,this will give you the pinion pre-load,
  6 - Do this three times to obtain the average,
  7 - You can then remove the nut, flange,oilseal housing and replace the seal,
  8 - After you have replaced the above, use the spring balance to obtain the previous pinion pre-load,care must be taken when tightening the pinion nut
       because you cannot undo the nut ,if you overtighten the pre-load you have a problem.
All the above assumes you are happy with the pre-load of your existing axle, if you want to use the MB specification there is a formula to obtain the correct setting for the spring balance,i do not have this to hand but i feel sure one of our members will have it.
The spring balance was/is a recognised procedure by one of the US owned British car manufacturers
Eric

jeffc280sl

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2010, 14:02:36 »
Tough question to answer because it depends on the cost and availability of good axles from a junk yard.  Three or four years ago I bought two 3.27 ratio axles hoping to get one good one.  They both turned out to be salvageable.  If you can't find a good casing you can have the pin welded in place as Joe mentions.

xcashewx

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2010, 19:46:27 »
ive decided im just going to take apart my current axle and get the casting pin welded in place. any suggestions on the type of place i should take my casting to get welded?

jeffc280sl

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Re: pinion adjusment?
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2010, 21:12:47 »
I found a guy that repaired just about everything.  Look for someone that repairs cast iron, maybe motorcycle cylinder heads. The rest of the welding is simple.