Author Topic: New cam and crank shaft setup  (Read 10776 times)

jeffc280sl

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New cam and crank shaft setup
« on: May 03, 2005, 15:47:04 »
I own a 1970 280SL 4 speed.  I have been working on my ignition system.   My head, valves were reworked and a new cam was installed 5 years ago. I just took a look at the aligned cam and cam bearing marks and noticed my crank shaft is positioned at 0 on the inside marking scale.   Has my new cam was been installed correctly? Should I correct this problem? How would the symptoms of this problem show up in the running of the engine?

Thank you

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

ja17

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2005, 22:23:50 »
Hello Jeff,
Please elaborate a little more, I do not understand the question?

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

jeffc280sl

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2005, 04:43:14 »
Thanks Joe,

The question has to do with cam and crank shaft alignment.  I read elsewhere that the cam should be installed and aligned with marks on the cam shaft and cam bearing.  This indicates TDC and the intake and exhaust lobes for cylinder 1 are in a V position poining up.  My reading indicated that when the cam shaft is in this position the crank shaft should at 15-20 degrees ATDC. When my cam marks are perfectly aligned the crank shaft is at 0.   Is this 15-20 ATDC correct for my car and should I diconnect the timing chain and reposition the crank shaft which I suppose amounts to one link to achieve the desired cam/crank shaft alignment?  Second question:  How would my car run if my current setup is incorrect?

Thank you

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

Ben

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2005, 06:53:25 »
Hi Jeff,
     I think you are confusing ignition timing and valve timing. With the Cam marks in-line the bottom crank pulley SHOULD be at "0" !

This is Top Dead Centre, TDC and is correct.

The 15-20 degree has to do with the actual ignition timing/advance. There was also some talk recently of Valve overlap where the 15 degree figure was quoted. this may have added to your confusion.

Dont worry your engine is set up correctly, if it were 15-20 degrees out it would be an engine anymore !! :evil:

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

Naj ✝︎

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2005, 06:54:22 »
Jeff C,
I believe you have a perfectly timed engine.
'0' = TDC on the crank + piston #1 on compression stroke - both valves fully closed.
I think the 20 degrees ATDC is someting to do with the fuel injection pump timing?
No doubt Joe will confirm.

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
68 280SL

jeffc280sl

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2005, 07:01:54 »
Thanks Naj and Ben,

The car runs great.  What I read must have to do with setting up the FIP.  Hope Joe confirms things are okay.  You guys made me feel a lot better.



Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

Tom

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2005, 07:08:47 »
The notches on the cam should line up with each other when the crank shaft is at top dead center.

Naj, correct on linking the 20 degrees to the injection pump.  The injection pump also has timing marks.  It should be removed with the engine timing 20 degrees ATDC and re-installd at that mark.  At that 20 degree setting on the engine, the marks on the injection pump are lined up to top dead center.  

Best,

Tom

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic
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ja17

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2005, 17:04:19 »
Hello Jeff,
When the crankshaft is at 0 (zero) the alignment marks on the cam bearing and camshaft should be lined-up as close as possible. It is normal for the cam marks to be a little late since chain stretch and head work can cause the cam timing to become late. Always turn the engine in the normal direction of rotation (clockwise as you stand in front of the car looking rearward). Turn the engine and note when the crankshft reaches TDC as you described. The cam mark can be a little late but NEVER NEVER EVER even a bit EEARLY!!!!!!!!! After tampering with valve timing always turn the engine at least one revolution to double check the cam timing.

One chain link equates to about 18 degrees of cam timing. So for instance; if your camsahft mark is 20 degrees late, reseting the cam one chain link forward will get you from 20 ATDC to 2ATDC (this would be fine).  However if your cam is 15 degrees late your cam timing will go from 15ATDC to 3 BTDC (will damage engine)!!

Mercedes has "offset" camshaft woodruff keys available to make adjustments from 4 to 10 degrees (see BBB 00-93 for part numbers and more informtion).

Before you go to all the trouble off installing off-set woodruff keys, Mercedes states that it will probably make no "noticable difference".

You have nothing to be concerned about until your cam timing gets over 10 degrees late. At this point I would consider looking into the cause. My first concern would be that your chain may be worn enough to need replacement.This is the biggest cause of late cam timing. If you have records with your car look through the service orders to see if a new chain has ever been installed. If you are unfamiliar with making that judgement on chain stretch, the 100,000 mile rule for a timing chain is good insurance. Installing a new timing chain will automatically make your cam timing closer to specs.

When a cylinder head is "milled" or "re-surfaced" the head becomes shorter and the  timing chain becomes longer, in a sense. Since the chain travels through the head twice (once up then down), Milling the head one millimeter will give the chain TWO millimeters more slack. So this also makes cam timing a bit later.  

I have done quite a bit experimenting with cam timing over the years. Difference in performance can hardly be felt until cam timing becomes later than twelve or fifteen degrees. If the cam timing is more than a link late the loss of power, fuel economy and running quality will become very very noticable.

Advancing (early) cam timing, to just a degree or two before TDC, will immediately cause the piston to come in contact with the valves!! (not good). As stated never time the camshaft early even a little bit!

Don't confuse this with ignition timing which deals with spark delivery to the engine. We are talking crankshaft, camshaft and chain here no distributors yet.

As far as injection timing, yes the injection pump is installed at 20 degrees ATDC. Normal chain stretch will NOT noticalby effectt injection timing and performance.

Now Mercedes changed engine crankshaft timing pointers around 1968. The pointer actually changed shape and position on the block so as to become more visible. The early pointer was positioned at two o'clock and was rectangular in shape  with one corner clipped. The latter pointer was positioned at one o'clock and was triangular in shape. Now the factory had a large supply of vibration dampners already made for the early pointers,  so they just added a second degree scale on the vibration dampner for the new triangular pointer! Later engines with the "triangular " pointer always use the inside scale (closest to the block). Eventually when stock of these vibration dampners (two scale) depleated new versions were supplied with only the one correct scale!
Refer to BBB p. 00-7/2 for some photos and more information.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
« Last Edit: May 04, 2005, 17:13:04 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

jeffc280sl

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2005, 17:17:11 »
Thank you Joe,

I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed response. Thanks for your time. You are the best.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

Benz Dr.

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2005, 00:03:56 »
Cam timing is important.
 Joe is right though, you feel ignition timing a lot more because it affects the cumbustion process - the valves are already closed so at least all the air has entered the cylinder before ignition.

 My rule of thumb goes something like this.
 Each pound of compression is worth about 1 HP on a 250SL. Before I decked the block on my car I had about 150 - 155 PSI with all new parts installed. We removed about .020'' from the block and the pistons are now just level with the parting surface. Compression is now 175 - 180 PSI so each .001'' off of the block will give you roughly 1 pound of compression. Compression is HP.
You loose about 1 HP for every 2 degrees of late cam timing and the more it's late the more you loose. Very little at close to optimal and several times more at 15 degrees. Cam lift and duration seems to have a bigger effect with a euro cam having about 10 degrees more duration. This alone will give you about 10 more HP at higher RPM's. The 230SL cam advanced 3 degrees will be almost the same as the euro 280SL ( early ) cam.

The main thing is that you have to maintain .9mm or about .035'' clearance between the piston and the intake valve ( exhaust is no concern here ) at 5 degrees ATDC. At this point the valve is moving down faster than the piston because the piston actually stops as it goes over TDC. ( If you watch the pistons with the head off you will see that two move up or down while two stop momentarily as they reach the top of the cylinder ) While they stop everything else continues to move and that's why the valve gets this close.
I turn the engine to 5 degrees ATDC and use a dial guage placed straight down on the valve spring retainer. I then push down on the intake valve until it hits the piston. Anything over 1.0 mm is pretty safe. There's always a bit of carbon that forms on the piston and valve head - this is why you need this minimum clearance for safety.
Obviously, you could go closer than this but risk the chance of contact at high RPM. Valve float and slight rod stretch could cause more damage than the old '' death rattle ''.

Dan Caron's
 SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
 slbarn.mbz.org
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Naj ✝︎

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2005, 04:47:54 »
Where would one be without these guys know-how and experience eh  :oops:

naj

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68 280SL
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jeffc280sl

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2005, 07:21:40 »
You are right Naj.  Joe and Dan are incredibly valuable resources and I thank them for sharing their knowledge.

Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed

glenn

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2010, 10:38:30 »
Joe et al,  Just got a 280SE 4 door 1970(108 018).  Head was 'reworked' on a 130 980 block(ball studs and rocker arms look virtually new).  The cam shaft keyway is between No 1 in and exh cams.  But the notch on the shaft washer is 180 from the washer keyway.   Ergo, when the washer notch lines up with the pointer on the bearing pillow, the No 1 cams are at 5 and 7 o'clock.   ?????  Homemade washer?????
   Also, how can I tell if the FIP is at 20 ATDC without pulling it???

   Each new old MB is a 'history is a mystery'!

ja17

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2010, 12:06:46 »
Hello,

The cam washer notch should line up with the key in the camshaft. Make sure you do not have the engine at TDC on the exhaust stroke. If so the crankshaft will read "0" and the cam lobes will point downward. TDC on the intake stroke occures when the ignition rotor is pointing to the number one spark plug wire, and both cam lobes are upward (10 and 2 o'clock).

The cam washer may be on 180 degrees off also?

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

glenn

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 01:26:51 »
Joe et al, Here is a picture of the normal cam washer-the notch and keyway are at 0 degrees.  The washer on my 'new' subject cam shaft has the keyway at 0 degrees and the notch at 180 degrees.  Why??  From another engine??   Also, chain guide has hex head bolts, not Allen cap screws???
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 01:28:51 by glenn »

ja17

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 04:12:30 »
Hello Glenn,

There is only one expaination, they are the wrong parts as you suspect.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Ron

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2010, 22:20:08 »


all, on picture 0144 above, those beads of fluid?  Are they water?  I have that in my engine too, and I'm thinking bad head gasket.  Or is that normal?

Ron

1966 230SL, euro

glenn

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Re: New cam and crank shaft setup
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2010, 09:08:12 »
Ron et al, Pix were taken outside in the drizzle-ergo rain drops.  But-green fluid leaks from the temp sensor. Temp sensor is beyond #6 plug directly into this head.   ???