Pagoda aesthetics

[dseretakis]

I have a good friend who has particularly good taste in cars. He is also an artist and has rendered some truly beautiful drawings of cars. While we tend to agree on most points regarding successful automotive design elements (we generally love and hate the same cars) we seem to disagree on the pagoda. He feels that the pagoda hardtop, which we regard as beautiful, is inappropriately scaled for such a small car. He feels that the windows are too tall and are more suitable for a sedan. Additionally, he feels that the wheels are proportionally too large and protuberant-particularly in the rear. I like the positioning of the rear wheels as they give this delicately designed car a more aggressive stance. While I acknowledge his points, I don't feel that they detract from the overall styling of the car. What do you all think?   Is it time for us to sell our pagodas and strive for something more beautiful, say a Bugatti Atlantic coupe?

[thelews]

This might be a bad (biased) sample for this poll.

[dseretakis]

Agreed, but what do you think of his particular points?

[mdsalemi]

I will agree that the windows are tall, and the car tall, giving the car with the hard top on, a rather unique look.  However, once INSIDE this same car, those perceptions are left to the observers outside.  The driver and passenger inside are left with astoundingly wide visibility that no 2-place roadster ever came remotely close to.  It isn't always or just about styling, Mercedes always had engineers mixed up in styling, and Bela Barenyi was in this one.

Protuberant wheels?  Don't think so.  Large?  Certainly for the time.  My quote in the buyer's guide, just published: ...the new P110 and RA60 185-HR14 tires contained both bias and radial plies with stiff sidewalls.  For the time, this gave the car a wide, sure footed stance when compared with other roadsters...

Of course that quote was really condensed in the edit; it was not specifically the tires, but the overall size of the tires and wheels.

If your artist friend does not like the Pagoda, that's OK.  Plenty of others do, including many artists and people of taste.

[Largeowner]

The tall windows and large interior are the VERY REASON I bought the car!  At 6 foot 6, there is no other sports car that I fit comfortably into.  In fact, after allowing a tall spectator a a local car show to sit in my car, I created another Pagoda fan.  He could not believe how well he fit into the car!

To complicate the discussion...Do you thing the fog/rally lights add to the look or detract from it?

Large Owner

[MichaelB.]

He does realize that the tall windows were put in place for easier ingress & egress right? Design folk often think more like Italian manufacturers then German manufacturers. Commonly the German manufacturers have form FOLLOW function (that was the case on the pagoda windows) whereas the Italian manufacturer often does the opposite.

I own a few of each and can attest that the German way is mostly more favorable even if the Italian way is more ascetically pleasing.

[Raymond]

Desretakis,
What does this friend of yours drive? 

[dseretakis]

My friend drives an Alfa spyder and a Mercedes 560SEC. In the recent past he owned and drove  a 280SE 3.5 coupe and a 190SL.

[Peter van Es]

I like the tall windows. One other car I particularly like from this era is the Lancia Fulvia. Spot the similarities.

[gugel]

I disagree completely with your friend.  The tall windows and the relatively large wheels give the car its personality, making the Pagoda, together with the slightly later BMW 3.0CS, one of the most beautiful cars of the era.  Certainly much better looking than its successor models.

But, while we're talking about aesthetics, what do people think about the styling of the Pinin Farina 230SL?  To me, it takes away the character of the car and makes it rather anonymous, as well as doing away with the functionality of the removable hardtop.  This car always attracts attention at shows, but IMHO, Farina should have left well enough alone.

Chris Earnest

[dseretakis]

I like the tall windows. One other car I particularly like from this era is the Lancia Fulvia. Spot the similarities.

I've also always liked the Fulvia. You are the first to agree with me on the design merits of this car! There was a blue Fulvia which was always parked outside my house in Athens during my childhood. It was owned by architect.

[mdsalemi]

Well Peter and Dseretakis, you would probably love the never built "Pagoda W123" design of 1962.

PS.  We never saw many Lancias on this side of the pond...

[Peter van Es]

Sorry, no. That does not agree with me. Too boxy, because the "Glass House" is too big. It is the combination of the tall windows with the small compartment, and, for the Pagoda at least, the way it looks (clean) with the top down.

[dseretakis]

I don't like it either. I looks a bit hearse like.

[pj]

The Fulvia and the E9 are nice enough, but are they as wide as the Pagoda? Or maybe the Pagoda is a touch lower to the ground. While the one critic finds the Pagoda roof "innappropriately scaled," I just think it's boldly original. I wonder if we draw some rectangles around the various elements of the Pagoda how the ratios would compare with the Fulvia or the E9. I remember in about 4th grade being very impressed with the concept of the "Golden Ratio" as a design principle in e.g. the Parthenon. Sometimes I tie it in to flags or to modern view screen ratios. Even pillows!

As for the Glass House W123, no one would mistake it for a sports car. If we compare it instead to other big sedans or even limousines, the openness and futuristic airiness is remarkable. Fun to speculate: would it have sold well in the sexy 60s?

[mdsalemi]

I can't believe you take the Pagoda W123 seriouisly!  It was a design sketch, not more than jotting on the back of a napkin.  You see there are no pillars to speak of right?  You see it could never be manufactured, right?  Just an exercise...

[Ulf]

I've owned several classics over the years, but my Pagoda is the only one that truly looks beautiful from every angle - my Spitfire was great looking, but way too small, my TR6 had a great profile and front, but was too narrow when viewed from the rear, my MGA was close to perfection, but still a little too tall just behind the seats...
I have heard the comment about the tall windows before, but this is not hotrod or low-slung sports car, but a distinguished tourer with proportions that are just right for what it is :-)

[mdsalemi]

this is not hotrod or low-slung sports car, but a distinguished tourer with proportions that are just right for what it is :-)

About as perfect a quote and assessment as there can be...

[Ulf]

Thanks Michael :-)

[ljg]

After owning a number of wonderful cars, I have concluded that none of them are perfect in their appearance.  I have owned four E-Types (coupes and roadsters).  At one time I considered these to be close to perfection.  With time however, I tired of their looks.  Too long, clearly too narrow, and with wheels that get lost in the wheel wells.
My 3.0 CSi was once near the top of the list.  With time, I found it to be a bit bulky and wished it was a two seater.
For many years I owned a 246 GTS Dino.  During my medical school days, I had a Dino brochure on my wall, motivating me to complete my studies.  The Dino's proportions (especially in the Spider form) just aren't correct.  Mid-engine layouts are difficult.
I currently own a titanium grey/biscuit 10,000 original mile Ferrari 330 GTC and a 14,000 original mile 280 SL tobacco/bamboo.  I find these two vehicles to be close to perfection in appearance.  There are few weak points in their aesthetics and I have coveted their looks since their introductions over 45 years ago.  Will I tire of them in time?
Enjoy our Pagodas.
ljg
 

[Peter van Es]

I like the Ferrari 250 GTC by Pininfarina (see my earlier (well, really old) post http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=641.msg2945#msg2945). And a Lancia Aurelia, or Lancia Flaminia GT Touring (Zagato), both very roudned in their looks.

Peter

[Wolfmann]

The Ferrari 330 GTC is indeed achingly beautiful, particularly in silver. The Pagoda likewise, two of the finest designs ever IMHO.

[glenn]

Pintos and Gremlins aside, the 111 coupes and cabs rank near the top. The low grill/hood model gets extra points with the 3.5.   The Pagoda with no top is pretty sleek- just kinda elegant looking.