Author Topic: Engine swap or rebuild?  (Read 7537 times)

Erik

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Engine swap or rebuild?
« on: June 25, 2011, 13:47:24 »
Hello,

Bad luck this morning, while cruising my engine broke down (135.000 miles). It looks and sounds severe: piston, rod, crankshaft and valves of the nr. 1 cylinder are probably damaged. I’ ll have the engine opened for a more thorough inspection but it seems that I look upto a total rebuild.

I don’t know yet what the cost of a rebuild by a specialist would be but has anyone experience in swapping engines?
And if so, could you advise me on:
1./ Is it wise to fit a used engine or would I just be buying new troubles?
2./ Does the engine of a 220SE, 280SE (W108/W111) or even an 280SL (W113) fit into the engine bay of an 230 automatic?
3./ Could I install the engine of a more recent MB-line  (like the 280E six or even the 230E four of the W123)?

Thank you .
Greetings,
Erik

Peter van Es

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 14:39:46 »
Erik,

Sorry to hear of your bad luck. My car is also slightly ill but nowhere near as bad as yours.

Cees Klumper has a number of SL113 engines. He might be able to sell you one.

I know of a Dutch Pagoda owner who recently had his engine rebuilt by http://www.keizermotorenrevisie.nl/ in Doetichem. They are quite reputable. I can get you in touch with him via e-mail if you want to know more.

Peter
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 16:39:16 »
Hi Erik - I would recommend you try to have the current engine rebuilt, especially if it is the original one. Make sure to have it done by someone who knows what they are doing; places like Keizer as Peter recommends. But do shop around; some charge the moon (don't be surprised if you receive quotes in excess of EUR 12 thousand). When I needed to have my engine rebuilt in 2003, I learned quickly that most places will not tell you:

- what it is going to cost ("we'll need to open it up first Sir") - at that point, of course you are married without a prenuptial agreement
- how long it is going to take
- also, some have experienced troubles after the rebuild, so unless you are sure of the quality of the work ...

Other displacement engines of the Pagoda series will fit, but manual transmission engines will need to be modified somewhat to mate to your automatic transmission. Same with the sedan engines, and on those you need to fit the tachometer drive (no big deal, you should be able to just install the drive on your current engine).

In general, I would try to stay with the original displacement and would definitely not recommend fitting a totally different engine.

Check around on the forum, there's lots of information here. I do have a short block (lower part of the engine only) that was completely rebuilt, but it's for a 280 SL and without the head. Your 230 head would not fit. I have other 280 engines, whole and in parts, but none that are rebuilt.

One last option you should consider is having the work done farther away, by really specialised outfits (there is one in the UK and of course places like Metric Motors in the US - transporting an engine, if you use a good shipper, is less expensive than you might expect).

Good luck!
Cees
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 16:42:16 by Cees Klumper »
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

Peter van Es

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 20:32:03 »
I just got the news from my garage. My engine head is very poor. On cylinder 4 the gasket had blown. Coolant was getting into the cylinder. Hence lots of exhaust smoke.

Head was removed. A pressure test indicated that valve seats on cylinder 1 and 4 had leaks. A coolant channel at cylinder 1 was showing signs of getting corroded. A valve guide at cylinder 1 was loose. Bottom end and cylinders and pistons are ok, so it is just the head. Valves and valve stems, and camshaft appear ok. Worst however:

the injector inlets have been tapped, and helicoils have been inserted to fit the injectors. However on cylinder 6, the inlet has been tapped so large that in addition to the helicoil some sort of sealant has been added. It is amazing that it has lasted the 10+ years that it did... but basically my cylinder head is beyond repair.

My repair man is now trying to locate a second hand cylinder head in decent shape to use. Hopefully we can find one otherwise we're up the proverbial creek...

Peter
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tel76

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2011, 21:30:45 »
Hello Peter,
On # 6 you could get an engineering company to make an adaptor out of steel that would fit into the cyl: head and the ID would fit the injector.
There is a company in the US that manufactures these adaptors complete with locking system.
Google    Lock-n-stitch  Full - Torque    they should have a solution for you.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 21:41:37 by tel76 »
Eric

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2011, 01:59:58 »
Hello Peter,


Sorry to hear about your Pagoda problems. Let me know if anyone over here can help with parts or whatever. I am sure some good used heads are available.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
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1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
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Benz Dr.

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2011, 04:31:26 »
You also have the option of using a 250SE head which should help some. We weld corroded areas of a head as long as it's not too much or so bad it's not practical.
 If a head is machined beyond the limit, has corroded coolant chambers, is warped or cracked and has stripped threads, then it's probably a door stopper at that point.  :'(

  If it was a 300SL head then maybe you would try and fix it. :)
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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treedoc

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2011, 07:48:18 »
Peter,

I know we are a long way away but in a few weeks I will have a spare early series 280SL head
About to fit a fully reconed, top & bottom, late series 280 motor in our Pagoda.

Sorry Erik don't have any 230/250 parts

Geoff
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 07:53:24 by treedoc »

Peter van Es

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 08:22:40 »
Thanks for all the offers of help (also those via PM)...

My local guy (Alex Vos in Baarn) has located a 2nd hand original head, and a completely refurbished head here in NL. He's going to look them over today or monday and haggle over price. Because he'll know exactly what he'll be getting he prefers that over alternative options.

So unless these prove to be dead-ends I'll keep your offers in reserve, and let you know how it is going.

To Erik, Alex specializes in old Mercedes, has been doing this for 25 years and also does engine rebuilds. Probably not as brand new as Metric Motors, but not as much of a price tag either.

Alex also does a lot of work for Holland's largest Mercedes collector, Nico Ockhuisen (see a video profile on him here... in Dutch http://zideo.nl/channel/cars/playzideo/6d596d576d6c673d)

Peter
Peter
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Peter h

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Re: Engine swap or rebuild?
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2011, 13:29:03 »
Hallo Peter

i had the same problems with my engine 3 years ago. 3 l oil every 1000 km. 2 valve guides are lose and the cylinder are also corroded. The engine runs 130000 mils.
I send the engine to Väth, 1 week later the engine was back , averything new. Mr Väth give me a top price 5400 € 3 years ago. The engine now runs like new and needs under 0,5 l öl.
http://www.vaeth.com/motorentechnik/mercedes/motoren/m100.html


Peter
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