New Buyer... '65 230 SL

[n/a]

I am 26 years old, currently looking to buy my first SL.

I found a nice looking 1965 230 SL but I am wondering about a few things:

1.  The VIN # is: 11304212008320.  Does this mean anything to any of the seasoned vets out there?

2.  Owner says vehicle was imported from Germany.  It's a "three seater" with a little back seat facing sideways in the back.  Owner claims only 300 of these were made.  Is this true?

2.  Has only 69,000 original miles and all paperwork looks OK.  Missing rear bumper and original tires. Still haven't had it in to a mechanic for inspection. Owner is asking $8,500.  Any advice would be VASTLY appreciated.  

I attatched some pics.

thanks,
Soren.

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[Richard Madison]

Soren:

Welcome to 'The Place for Pagodas'

The Vin would be for a 230 SL made in December 1964 (likely called a "1965"), the middle number "12" shows it is a Left Hand Drive with automatic transmission.

"Imported from Germany": since all Pagodas were imported from Germany maybe the owner means this car was originally made for a German customer and was later sent to the US. If this is true, the car is a "Euro" model rather than a "US" model. The Euro typically has different headlights, has instruments in KM instead of miles, might have a slightly different spec for the engine and rear end ratio.

The photos show Euro headlights so maybe it was later exported later  to the US. The photos also show that the wheel covers are not original. Fog lights are a little unusual for these cars.
 
The number of sideway back seats is not known to me. I have never seen a count of this option. It is not a common option. Some of these seats were dealer installed and I think it would be difficult to make an accurate estimate. Wonder where he got the number 300 from?

Eventually, you can get the Data Card for the car which will tell you what options the car came with but for now a mechanical and rust inspection would be very wise.

I think this site has an article about what to look for in a purchase. Use the Search button to find that article.

$8,500 is reasonable for a 230 SL in fair condition.

Others will chime in here with more info.

Richard M

[mdsalemi]

Welcome, Soren, to the world of 113's.

There is an excellent book by Frank Barrett (I've attached a picture of the front cover; it is available directly from Toad Hall Publishers http://www.toadhallbook.com/ or from Amazon.com)that gives a lot of explicit detail on the vehicle and what to look for when evaluating.  I found the book valuable; it was only $18.95.  You should buy it and read the section on the 113's prior to purchase.  My basket-case car came from my Uncle, but after I got it I bought Barrett's book as well as quite a few others (Toad Hall carries most of them) out there (just do an Amazon search) so I was armed with a lot of published information when I began my restoration.  I bought a similar book to Barrett's years ago regarding Triumph Stag cars, and wisely learned to STEER CLEAR of Stags!

In addition to this group, which spun off of the Yahoo group (not for any political reasons it was just that the prepackaged Yahoo format was limiting), there is the Yahoo group http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/W113/ as well as another group out there http://pagoda113.com/ that cater specifically to this vehicle.  No matter what problem you have or part you need or advice, you are amongst people who have been there and done that before, and we have quite a few experts among us--people who have had their cars for 30 years or more like Richard Madison; people like Joe Alexander who knows them mechanically inside and out; Doug Kim who is a treasure trove of detailed information--and that's just three people!  Others have show cars; some have raced; others are daily drivers.  We all share information to keep the cars running that's why we've organized, as it were.

Richard is correct in that the "Kinder seat" was a rare option, but who today would actually put an untethered child in that seat?  It has far more value as an historical oddity or option then a practical seat in which to tool around with your kid.  I think you can tell if your seat was factory original by the data card.  Other dealer installed items were Blaupunkt (Only Beckers came from the factory) radios and air conditioning.

You might need to tell people where you live, and you might find someone willing to help you out or point you to a local mechanic who can evaluate the car for you.  I'd have to agree with Richard about the price.  If the car runs well, and the body is not too bad, the price seems fair.

If you are totally new to the world of classic Mercedes and SL's you'll be pleased to know that nearly every part you might need is available, many of them quite reasonable in price.  Some are available as aftermarket, others as OEM only.  There are some items such as the hood, radiator, soft top frame and others that are extremely expensive, but most other items are as reasonable as parts get.  Sadly the bumper you might want isn't in the cheap category, expect to pay about $500 each (there are two of them)for the rear set.  eBay is a place to look for them, also the STAR classifieds.  

If you are going to buy the car, I suggest joining the MBCA and thus subscribing to the Star.

Good luck!!


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Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

I have a question for you...

what is your total budget, I mean how much more can you spend on top of the 8500?? you just need to have a little financial leeway in case you need major intervention, on the engine or so.

This ammount seems reasonable, you might even be able to negotiate a tiny bit, but if you want the car, don't be too greedy.

Have the car inspected by someone who is well versed in the world of antiques cars and know what is important to look at (rust, etc).
For instance, look under the kinder seat, see if there is any rust..I have seen some cars where you could see right through...BAD!!
I also found http://www.oursl.com to be helpful to start with (go to research).

oursl.com, Roy Spencer, is in Burlingame, 20 min south of San Francisco - 5 min from the airport. I think you are in SFO area...You should go and see him, have a look at his cars...the more cars you see, the better!!

At that price, if engine runs well and there is no major rust, you are taking a very small risk...so I can only tell you one thing:

HAVE FUN!!!!!
(And wear scarf in winter when you're driving topdown!!!)

Fabrice
Silver 1971 280 SL
New York City

[Douglas]

Soren,

If you can spring for Bruce's 230 SL, I'd go for that one instead. Different league altogether.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #018260

[n/a]

Hi Soren

Welcome to the wondeful world of the Pagoda! I have a 1965 230 SL with the transverse jump seat (data code number 565, I believe). They are a great car and exhilarating and fun to drive.

I can only agree with my fellow listers. Get someone who really knows about these cars to go over it thoroughly as the condition of the body is paramount. Even a car that looks great can be concealing a lot of rust.

I've just got my car back from extensive rust repairs. Inevitably there is twice as much rust as there appears on first inspection and repairs are very expensive if done properly. What I found was that having to re-do poor repairs by a previous owner was time consuming and costly and really pumped up the bill.

As Fabrice says look for rust beneath the jump seat. Water gets in from the soft top compartment and it can't get out. If you find rust there then the frame below around the jacking point is likely to be rotten as well as the ends of the sills. The front and rear quarter panels can rust as can the boot (trunk) floor, above the rear mudguards (fenders), beneath the headlights and in the depressions where the wiper shafts exit the body. This is not an exhaustive list but a good place to start.

Water gets it and can travel. It took me over a year to work out that the rust in the floor next to the accelerator pedal was due to water comming in through the soft top compartment, travelling along the sill and into the footwell. In my car, someone had covered the bottom drain holes with rubberised paint and blocked them. The water had nowhere to go and found it's way into unlikely places.

Always be suspicious when the underbody is newly covered in rubberised paint. Lots of nasties can be lurking underneath.

I bought my car relatively inexpensively and knew that it would need some body work. Now that it's been done properly I won't have to worry about it for a long time. I have no intention of selling my car so any money invested is well spent. I'm hoping that in many years to come I'll be known as the really old guy who drives that cool car!

Good luck!

Mark

1965 230 SL light blue, auto, RHD

[n/a]

Thanks so much everyone.  Your input is so much appreciated.  I am definately a newbie to this, but I am learning fast.

So, someone asked where I am located.  I am in the SF/Bay Area, and I would love it if someone could recommend a mechanic or expert that might want to take a look at a couple prospective cars for me.

Also, to answer another question, my budget is around 10,000 with perhaps another 2k over the next year for repairs/maintenance.  

Thanks again.

[pierre]

Hi Soren!
I'd like to add something to this subject.

I'm the owner of a 230 sl with jumpseat and I'm 99% sure that it's not a rare option at all. Here in Europe it is very common, really. Many Pagodas I've seen are equipped with it especially the 230 and 250 sl were too small for after war families, and there were in the sixties nearly no legal norms against that kind of things.

Cars had no security belts, no headrest of course, and my French Pagoda papers pretends this car is a...car for 5 persons!!!

For Europe, the price you mention is incredibly low.
The fog lights, better say additionnal head-light?, are rather usual in France,and Europe.

The official W113 in the Mercedes museum in Stuttgart has this original option:
http://www.motorlegend.com/users/forums/sandorf/DCPMBKL06.jpg
here also on a typical french SL with yellow lights:
http://www.motorlegend.com/users/forums/sandorf/DCPMBRN511.jpg

[Richard Madison]

Pierre's message about the Rear seat not being rare in Europe is a reminder for me not to draw conclusions too quickly.

I had assumed that since the Kinder seat is rarely seen in US Pagodas, that is was a rare option everywhere...but Pierre indicates that these seats may have been more common in Europe.

I guess the lesson here is do not extend observations made in one part of the world to the rest of the world without more information.

I will now describe the third seat in my car as "a rare option in North American cars."

I'm curious about what percent of cars in Europe and elsewhere have this option...

Klaus and others who were at least year's gathering of many Pagodas in Germany: can you recall the number of cars with this option?

Richard M

[rwmastel]

quote:I would love it if someone could recommend a mechanic or expert that might want to take a look at a couple prospective cars for me.

As suggested, I would approach Roy Spencer in Burlingame, 20 min south of San Francisco.  He operates the web site http://www.oursl.com and really knows these cars.  Of course, he might want to sell you one that he has on consignment, but they should also be able to inspect other cars or recommend someone locally that you can trust.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420