interesting project car #300

[DaveB]

http://cgi.ebay.com/271138900235

This car looks worthy of an original restoration: 4-speed with a nice colour combination of 332G with red leather and Becker Grand Prix. Seller states $15k has been spent on the motor and it looks like the work may have been done at MB (genuine battery and reservoir cap).  Though surely MB would have cleaned the valve cover . The injection pump appears to have been rebuilt and the car looks to have original panels. No hardtop shown, nor - note of caution! - undercarriage photos. Someone buy this one!

[Flyair]

the number on the plaque #300 does nor match the VIN shown in the description…

Unless I missed some massive appreciation in Pagoda prices, at this price I would expect more of a car here. Quite frankly this car would require a complete restoration and a more than generous injection of cash….

For just undergoing restoration of my car, my best guess is that restoration will command more than double of the asked price, without achieving concourse state.

Let me bet: 20 thousand bucks in work and another 30 thousand in pieces...   easily … and the most important part to make this project viable would be the CIP (Cash Injection Pump) 

Who says better?

[DaveB]

I hadn't noticed that about the VIN. In fact I've never seen a "Karroserie" plate like that, though I think it's probably original.

Yes, unfortunately a correct restoration would be expensive!

[Jonny B]

Yowza, a correct restoration would be EXPENSIVE!

[Garry]

I agree, They might have spent $15k on engine work but it was highly unlikely that it was in this century. To restore it to non concourse but 8+ out of ten car would cost more than double the asking price, that is if the engine is good, if not add another $12k plus cad plating for $2k. plus ancillary items for another $2k plus painting the engine bay, another $2k so just the engine bay will suck out of you just on $20k and thats not concourse level work and you have not even accounted for any rust, chroming, interior, carpets, soft tops and then painting, Now if you want to do all the work yourself and have a couple of years free, then the parts alone are going to be nearly the cost of the car.

So now you have spent between $60 and $70k and have a very nice car, but not concourse.  My advise, get together the $60 - $70 up front and go buy a good car to start with and not mess around for some years hoping you don't find any more ticking time bombs waiting to be found as you restore the car that are going to cost even more $$

My current experience in just doing the engine bay is that the cost to restore has more than doubled in recent years. I have spent more than 50% over my expected budget and still not quite there yet.

Maybe a good car to start but it would want to be well under $20 if it is taken on as a project car needing full restoration.  

[Markbhai]

Wow...how much does a Pagoda cost in the US if this looks value for money?

In the UK we would call this "a bag of spanners" definitely not worth the asking price, the front is more out of line than bugs bunny's teeth! What a mess. It is a basket case, barely worth £15k, the close up of the radio shows that even the interior chrome is rubbish.

This car should be saved but not at that price.

M.

[kampala]

Fun to look at ... wow ...  I think someone took that "bag of spanners" and beat this car with it ... poor dog.   This puppy has had a hard life and now it's a wounded, street hardened pit-bull showcased in a pomeranian pet shop. 

Just look at the bite marks on the rear quarters ... that must have hurt.   A gnarly face only a mother could love ... full of character though.    It's left ear has been yanked a foot forward ... now sutured onto the fender instead of the driver's door.   There's a reason they trim ears on fight dogs.  No idea what the wounds are like underneath.  This beast has been banished to sleep outside most of it's adult life, finding shelter where it could.  And it's taken it's toll ... the only doghouse that interior has seen is the pet-shop it's being displayed in now.      The 15K spent on the guts is probably true ... over the life of this poor creature ... just so he could fight another day.  I do appreciate the overly shiny polished shoes they put on its paws ... Sunday best.   

This one is probably not ready to get the needle for the big sleep ...  but its gonna take a lot of love and a lot of discounts for anyone to give him a home.

[DaveB]

OK, good comments .

Obviously there are a lot of 'ifs' about this car, and few answers to be found in the sellers description or photos. Still appeals to me though.

Please note I never said it was a bargain. I guess the seller is just fishing at that price.

[Peter van Es]

Some punter will fall for it on Ebay. All of us here have a massive information head start. The uninformed will have heard of prices going $50-70K or even higher for Pagoda's, but cannot recognize the difference and will think this a good deal.

Be glad you are a member here, an have learned so much about these cars...

Peter

(ps: I just saw some of the pics... this is poor... I pity the person who bid it up to almost $29K.)

[DaveB]

After reviewing the photos again I still think this is a nice car. Sure the buy-it-now is overpriced but I don't think the seller expects to get that price. He maybe paid around ?15, maybe less, and is looking for offers in the low 20's, might take <20. To me that would be good buying, IF it's rust-free and mechanically sound (hope that isn't oil on the floor). The front issues picked up by Markbhai warrant inspection but don't look bad to me, maybe the left front bumper is bent down a little & the hood fit not quite factory, but the headlight notches appear to be there, at least on the RHS and maybe the other. Contrast the negatives with the upside: it appears to be all original, it's complete, it sits right, the panel gaps are generally excellent, it's got great specifications (4-speed, the colour combination, leather, Grand Prix radio), it's had some recent dollars spent on it (IP, tyres, & shocks  at the very least), and, importantly (in my view) it's a very early car. Of course that would all go up in smoke if it's swiss cheese underneath but I've got a feeling it may be ok. We'll probably never know. Unless someone here buys it! (at the right price, pending inspection etc etc). Clean it, put some seat covers on it, drive the hell out of it for a year or two then restore to original if you have the cash.

Achim - back me up! , or slap me out of this reverie before I fall for this old lady!!

[Garry]

Dave,

No good for Oz,  some fool has put the steering wheel on the wrong side

Garry

[DaveB]

Minor problem!

Actually why the hell are we on this side of the road anyway? Almost everyone else keeps to the right, land, sea and sky.

I was once in St. Croix, US Virgin Islands, where due to some historical quirk the road rules were LHD RHD but many of the cars were RHD LHD. "How do you overtake?" I asked my taxi driver. "Easy" he says, "I just keep way left and hang back far enough so I can see there's a gap ahead, then floor it". - "Oh, OK, no need to demonstrate that".

P.S. forgot to mention another big plus about that car - only 80k miles!!

[JamesL]

or 180,000

[hkollan]

If its not badly rusted in areas not shown it might be a decent car, although it seems it might have some body gap issues.
Looks like the early car stuff such as painted freshair vents are intact etc. I agree with DaveB that this could be a nice car to restore, especially if it has original fenders and matching hood and so on which is impossible to tell from the photos.
The pictured body plate showing body no. 300 could very well be correct for the listed VIN #.

Hans

[Khurram Darugar]

Hi Dave,
Im with peter (and everyone else for that matter).  This ones been sitting in humidity for a long long time.  Ive never seen a complete firewall peel off like that.  Rebuilding this type of car is an epic task suited mostly to pagoda restorers who need to make use of idle shop time..... 
There are better cars you can have fun with.  Its may not be about the money, but the effort here is epic. 
Just sayin
Kay

[114015]

Clean it, put some seat covers on it, drive the hell out of it for a year or two then restore to original if you have the cash.

Achim - back me up!  , or slap me out of this reverie before I fall for this old lady!!

Achim? Why Achim??? Is his opinion here really important? I think no.



On the long run it depends all on the value you get for your money.

One of the most important questions is, is it complete and (more or less) untouched. Both of these factors are even more important for a project car like this.
Plenty of past oversprays and new (vinyl or incorrect leather) interiors or other incorrect body repairs in the past make a car look (much) better on the first glance but only make a project car less worth to be restored. 
Personally, I doubt the car has already been sold for the closing bid appearing on ebay; if you take a look at the bidding history, the last and outrageous bids came from newbies without feedback.

This appears to me to be a highly interesting car if the price was/is right. Ok, the poor paint and the totally rotten seat covers together with the missing horn pad and other little findings distract a bit how good or not good this car can/could be. Only a close personal inspection can tell you more but not the pics.

Personally I like the (very) early ones like this car built around August 1963 very much. There are plenty of little details different from later cars and I think these are highly admirable.
Furthermore, look at these door panels. They are dirty, yes; but I have never seen early door panels up to serial no 000914 in leather in such good condition. Not a very common find! Those have reference characteristics once a thorough leather shampooing will have been applied. The chassis number 000296 and body number 00300 (!) (one digit less!) fit each other well since those were only identical with the very first cars like in the case of VIN 000020 or so.

This car would give a perfect basis for a careful full restoration by Gernold or Tom Colitt if the (new) owner/customer is willing to pay for that.
Sadly, 230ies like this one hardly justify this kind of investment in the States; and luckily here in Continental Europe 230ies are not as undervalued as they are in the US.

This ones been sitting in humidity for a long long time.  Ive never seen a complete firewall peel off like that.

Ah, nope! Incorrect observation.
If it were a humidity-exposed example the interior and engine bay would look way different. This car looks much more as if it was a barn find and brought back to some life by comprehensive technical  maintenance (FI pump, distributor cap, ignition coil, hood stap, new brake reservoir, battery etc. after finishing a loong and neglected storage.
As to the firewall pad ... this is one observation to render a car like this highly collectable. Who of you guys has ever seen the early style firewall insulation mat in the real? Only a few like Alfred and me I would guess ... This one looks way different from what we are commonly used to in later cars and which was reproduced for us a year ago.
This here is the early style thin multi-layer firewall pad with a very fine grain pattern that at least the early 500 or so 230ies had (like VIN 000004 or 000015 which we discussed here on the forum comprehensively - look for their threads).
And this here is even good enough to be carefully removed from the car and put it back after the car's rotisserie restoration.

Oh wow ... 

I wish the car all the good luck it could receive.


Achim

[ctaylor738]

According to the information on ebay, the seller allowed an offer of $27,500 from a serious bidder to expire.  Seems to me that would have been a fair price and then some for the car. If the floors and undercarriage are solid, looks like a good candidate for a restoration - meaning that it would be a great car ... but a not-so-great investment.

[DaveB]

I agree Chuck, that seems high, even though I love the car. I hadn't checked the bids as I didn't think their $ value would be visible.
Who knows the motivation of some ebay sellers, maybe he hopes to save the commission by selling it off ebay. I felt he was using ebay primarily as an advertising medium (which worked well, nearly 4000 views) but surely $27.5 was enough for that car?

I second Achim, good luck #296...

[badali]

OK.  I just read all the postings on this.  Alot of you have seen the car I bought in the fall of 2008 when I brought it to Pub 2009 and 2011.  I only paid 15K for mine and it was drivable and presentable when I bought it.  I'm not saying you should not buy a car needing alot of work but the price should fit the condition.  Mine is rust free and has patina and needs some mechanical freshening up.  I have put another 10K in the car since I bought it and for a total of 25K I have a nice driver.  The car on ebay is way over what I would pay in its current condition since I have less than that in mine already.  Not knowing the true mechanical condition of the ebay car can definately add to the risk.  If the guy doesn't take the 27.5K offer he is crazier than the guy that offered it.

[Brian in NL]

If this car has only 80K miles, then I must be 25 and my wife 16.

[pj]

What an interesting thread. The ad has good enough pix to spark this discussion, but so many details are questionable. Like Brad, I paid for mine about half the price that is being advertised for #296/300, and mine looked better in similar photos. Then came the expenses, pretty much exactly as you've all described.

But it brings a tear to my eye nonetheless. There are only so many Pagodas around, and unless there's a new generation of 3D printers that I've missed, there won't be new Pagodas any time soon. The prospective buyer mentioned here -- the guy who reads about Pagodas going for $50k or $70k and thinks $28k is a bargain -- is he going to save this lovable pet? Or beat it some more until it can't be saved at all? That's a sad thought. The Pagoda design is like a bright candle shining across the decades, and when even one flickers out. . . the world becomes a darker place.

[Larry & Norma]

 :'( :'(