switch to Coker Phoenix Tires

[enochbell]

When I restored my 230sl 14 years ago I put on a new set of Michelins.  Ten thousand miles later they had no noticeable wear and no visible dry rot or cracking, but I figured that they must be fatigued in some way.  So, for safety sake, I swapped them out for the Coker Phoenix tires and am very pleased with the results.  The new rubber makes the car feel completely different.  Softer feel, almost like I installed power steering, and much quicker turn-in.  These tires are expensive but, imo, worth it.  I also like the whitewall look, although I know not everybody agrees.  
http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/enochbell/library/whitewalls?sort=3&page=1
BTW, thanks for all the help from the forum.  You all have enhanced significantly my enjoyment of this fine machine.

Greg

[KevinC]

Looking good Greg. So you have actually had time to visit it?

[Cees Klumper]

When I switched from the 205 Pirellis to the 185 Vredesteins, in my opinion the ride quality was just a bit less, although they look much better.

Off-topic modus on: I was pleased to see Greg's comment "You all have enhanced significantly my enjoyment of this fine machine" since my motto while on the board was always "helping Pagoda owners make the most out of enjoying their W113". Which is why I'm still a bit sad about how we now require payment to be able to access some of the knowledge here, because, even though it's only a relatively small amount, it does interfere with that goal at least philosophically, while we don't need that money for anything. Now back on topic!

[Hans2012]

I recently installed Coker Phoenix whitewall tires and I agree with Greg - they provide the "correct" look and give a great ride at all speeds.   I cleaned them today with a good dose of Bleche-Wite after a long ride - see attached. 

Regards
John

[mdsalemi]

I cleaned them today with a good dose of Bleche-Wite after a long ride - see attached. 

John, the Coker folks would not recommend Bleche-White.  They sell (of course you say) both a tire cleaner and dressing; neither are that expensive.  Both do a nice job.  Their claim is that some of the more commercial products out there are too "invasive" to the tire; they give you a look but at what cost! (Italics added for drama!)

Having owned the Cokers for many years now I can tell you that over time, you will find the white walls getting brown stains from one thing or another. The black in the black rubber is carbon black, and any kind of liquid cleaner or dressing that touches the black, and works its way to the white, will cause a stain.  The Coker product does a good job of cleaning.  At this stage of the game with my tires being mature, I frequently augment the cleaning with 1000 grit body sandpaper, wetordry, combined with the Coker cleaner.

http://www.cokertire.com/cleaner-and-dressing-package.html
http://www.amazon.com/3M-32021-Imperial-Wetordry-Sheet/dp/B0002MSY6S/ref=pd_sim_auto_4

[RBYCC]

I'm getting old....what happened to using just good old fashioned cleanser?
No need for any liquid cleaner and/or sandpaper....
That's the method I used in the sixties....

From the Mid South Region AACA:

"One of the best - and least expensive - methods of cleaning whitewalls is a bleaching cleanser, such as Comet or Ajax. Wet the tire, cover a wet scrub brush with the cleanser and scrub the whitewall. It will brighten up instantly. Scrub the entire circumference, then wash off the whole tire with soap and water. "

[Hans2012]

Thanks for the good information.  Ajax and a Brillo pad have always worked well for me.  Back to basics. 

Regards
John

[mdsalemi]

Chlorine, for all its great whitening powers, has the deft ability to harden and yellow rubber, over time, causing cracks.  If that's your goal--by all means, use Ajax, Comet, or what ever--and scrub away!  Most tire manufacturers will eventually come to thank you (quietly of course).

The stuff from Coker is specifically designed to NOT do that.  It works well, but like many modern products may not work 100% particularly if you let your tires get stained. That's where the 1000 grit sand paper comes in.  The 1000 grit sand paper is not unlike the toilet paper of the former East Germany. 

Unlike the tires, the stuff is very reasonably priced.  I bought a set (cleaner and dressing) about 4 years ago (for $9.95) and still have plenty left.  You can buy the cleaner for just $5.95.  I do keep my tires clean, with every car wash.

As for the Brillo pad, well they rust.  They leave small shards of steel in most everything. (sometimes your skin).  The 1000 grit sandpaper is an "old trick" so you old timers should feel comfortable with it. An old body man taught it to me, and it was also recommended by the Coker tech people. It's tough enough keeping the carbon black from the black rubber out of the white wall, but adding shredded steel to the mix?  Not for me.

I bought a sheet of 1000 grit sandpaper for about $1 several years ago and I'm still using small parts of it.  A little goes a very long way!

None of this is bank-busting car care--these things are all reasonably priced, and highly recommended by the people who sell expensive white walls.

[RBYCC]

"Chlorine, for all its great whitening powers, has the deft ability to harden and yellow rubber, over time, causing cracks.  If that's your goal--by all means, use Ajax, Comet, or what ever--and scrub away!  Most tire manufacturers will eventually come to thank you (quietly of course)"


Perhaps the newer whitewalls require biodegradable cleaners because of the amount of synthetic material in the compounds ?
Recall that you had no additives that would make the compound summer, winter, wet, dry, rain, snow, low temp, etc..

Just one basic more natural compound that differentiated itself by tread patterns.

Whitewalls never used to get brown, not even yellow with age, just dirty and never were contaminated with carbon black.

Consider that the total production of all current whitewalls probably doesn't equal how many whitewalls GM would use in a model year.

Personally cleaned many myself in the late fifties and early sixties.
The concentration of bleach in cleanser, further diluted with water  and the amount of time spent on the sidewall never caused a problem.
Most of the cleaning action was due to the abrasive component of the cleanser much like your 1000 grit paper.

http://www.hagerty.com/classic-car-articles-resources/HowTo/CarCare/All-Articles/2006/05/30/Whitewall-Preservation

[wwheeler]

I have read this thread with interst because I have (5) Coker WWs. Three are fine with just a minimal amount of brown staining occasionally. The fourth is moderate, but the fifth one is terrible and always has been and is now the spare. I should have returned that one when it was new. I tried what has been mentioned here on the the two including the 1000 grit wet/dry paper. It removed the stains on the moderate one but not completely on the worst one. The problem with the 1000 grit is that you have to be so very careful not to scuff the edges of the whitewall. I was surprised how fast the 1000 grit worked.

I am not totally confortable with bleach and this thread gave me an idea. I have some Soft Scrub (no bleach) cleanser and tried that on the two bad ones. It worked as well as Comet and the 1000 grit, but again no bleach. You can feel the very fine grit in the cleanser which mimics the 1000 grit paper treatment, but you don't have to be as cautious. It looked about the same but was much faster and no bleach. 

Now I will start on the bathrooms.   

[hauser]

FWIW  I recently had a set of modern Michelin tires get the WW treatment by Diamondback Classics.  The result is a WW that is so white it's almost freakishly white.  Honestly I never saw a whiter WW than this one.

[RBYCC]

I find the comments amazing concerning brown whitewalls on Coker tires.
I'd worry more about the compounds and quality of the Coker product and less about any bleach type rubber cleaners.
Even more amazing is that Coker sells a whitewall cleaner that only works if you use 1000 grit abrasive to get the whitewall clean.

Wwheeler using Soft  Scrub or non bleach cleanser makes more sense then an abrasive paper.
More controllable, faster and a mild abrasive.

Bottom line is what concentration and how long you leave a bleach whitewall cleaner be it Bleche-White or cleanser on the tire.
Reality is a low concentration along with a flooding of water and minimal residency time.

Interesting statement from Diamondback Tires:

" Whitewalls are susceptible to staining. Most whitewalls that are damaged are due to leaning or stacking. New tires are loaded with a variety of chemicals, and they will still have a small residue of mold release used by the manufacturer. These chemicals will permanently stain your whitewall. Once it is stained, it will remain yellow and cannot be cleaned. Whitewalls require extra caution when handling or storing. Handle with care!

Why whitewalls eventually lose their whiteness and start to look yellow is no mystery. It happens because the chemicals from the black
rubber eventually leach into the whitewall rubber. Then, over time,those chemicals will bleed right through to the surface of the softer
white rubber, where light and air turn them yellow over their entire surface.
But I have an answer to that problem.A few years back, I came up with a way to keep all that from happening.
It involves a white rubber formula that I developed myself, and now, that formula is a closely guarded secret (like that famous fried chicken recipe).Today, our whitewall material is actually made up of three layers, not just one.
The bottom layer is black rubber for maximum adhesion to the tire’s sidewall. It’s the exact same rubber formulation they use to make
truck retreads — very strong stuff. That’s because “like materials” bond best. In the middle is a special butyl barrier layer. The butyl layer blocks
the staining chemicals that will try to come through from the back. Nothing can pass through this layer. The white “face” layer itself is made up of my own white rubber formula. This is why Diamond Back claims its whitewalls are whiter, and that they will also stay whiter. It’s not an empty claim, and I don’t take it lightly — and neither should you. I just wanted you to know how we can make that claim in our marketing and advertising. I say it because it’s true. "


From an old guy....Who never had to sand whitewalls ??

[mdsalemi]

Anybody can use what ever they think is best for their tires, really...I'm also thoroughly amused by the invectives constantly thrown at Coker.   They don't make the tires, they are made by Michelin for them in Michelin's Mexico plant, in Queretaro (Bajío Region). They were made by consultation with the German Mercedes Old-Timers Club.

Coker whitewall cleaner does NOT "require" sandpaper.  It was merely a suggestion when I could not get mine as white as they were when new.  If you have not seen 1000 grit sandpaper, take step back and look at it first; it's on par with a brillo pad or soft scrub which others suggest here. If one feels it is too abrasive, similar papers are available in finer grades--1200, 1500, even 2000. You can always substitute a non-metallic scrubby pad or sanding sponge. I have not found it difficult to control--not at all. I just use small pieces and I use it wet with the cleaner. This isn't my own invention, it was suggested to me when I called Coker.

It's great to complain about current white walls, and how the old whitewalls didn't ever yellow.  Whatever--but what we have today is what we have to deal with...like ethanol in fuel!  The "good old days" are gone.

There is a big difference between tires of yesterday or ones on a daily driver, and tires we keep on a collector car.  I put 25,000+ miles annually on my daily driver, and at that rate (if I was buying tires, but they are management lease vehicles) I would be buying new tires every two to three years, simply because the tread would be gone.  In a collector car such as we have we are keeping the tires for a lot longer, thus some issues such as ozone cracking, leaching of carbon black into the white walls, etc. start to show up whereas you'd never (or rarely) see this on a tire that wears out in 2.5 years. I think my Cokers are about 9 years old now--and maybe not as white as a DiamondBack, or new Cokers, they still are pretty good. The super cleaning and white treatment that I do is not a regular process, only before a show or maybe once a season beyond that. My WW still looked great at 2 years!

The "bottom line" is doing what you want to do. If one feels that Bleche White is the god send for your WW tires, or Soft Scrub, or a Brillo pad and Comet/Ajax, well then by all means use it. If both Diamond Back, and Coker don't recommend products containing bleach, then that is something to pay attention to. Personally, IMHO, if Bill and Tab Chapman of Diamond Back--who make their living on WW tires, make a suggestion: I'm going to listen.

In Diamond Back's FAQ on "How Not to Clean Whitewalls" comes this: And speaking of ruining whitewall tires, right here is the perfect place to mention how NOT to clean your whitewalls. If you want to ruin them over time, one of the best ways is to use cleaners that contain bleach. Yep...whitewall cleaner. My guess is he is speaking to Soft Scrub; Comet, Ajax, etc. (For its invasive name, Bleche-White doesn't actually contain bleach...it's multiple organic solvents and surfactants. It's the solvents in Bleche White that have long term effects on the rubber.) I don't make this stuff up, it's from the experts.

BTW, I've been interested if not intriqued by all the good reports on Vredestein Sprint Classics...when the time comes, I'll buy a set of those and have them treated to WW by Diamond Back!   Seems that the Diamond Back guy has figured out that a layered system of WW rubber is better than the conventional single layer.  I guess you should expect expertise from an expert?

[wwheeler]

Next time I need tires, I will try the Vredestein/WW Diamond back combo. But that may be awhile though.

I appauld Coker for selling the repro tire, but I don't feel it is of best quality especially considering the price. In addition to the staining, there are also numerous indentations along the sidewall. These are within the internal construction of the tire which leads me to think it has to do with the multiple layups of rubber. Probably won't fall apart, but not very confidence inspiring either. I have seen this same issue with other new tires, but they usually have very few indentations.

I do agree that the new WW tires are not the old WW tires that I remember. I had no idea they were different. Kind of like the oil w/ much less ZDDP. It changes out from under you if you are not paying attenetion.

BTW, the soft scrub version I used does not have bleach. There are other formulas that do have the bleach.

[RBYCC]

Yes things are not as they used to be.
Sometimes better, most times not so in an attempt to save the environment.
Only to remember the mid to late nineties disasterous choice by Mercedes of insulation for engine bay wiring harnesses.

I do see however see humor in rediscovery...
Start with the original yellow can Simoniz paste wax....pure carnuba, then evolution to easy to use cleaner waxes, spray waxes ,nano waxes, whatever...
Yet now the top detailers have gone back to pure carnuba !!!!

Paint is the same with mandated low or no VOC's..
I just finished a concours quality Glasurit 90 water based system on a C124.
Material alone cost $2300.00

Gone are the days of lacquer which could be t-cut and Simonized to a brilliant depth and finish !!

We can't go back