How many Pagoda's might there be left in Canada

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

I know the question was asked about the USA, I'm wondering as to how many Pagoda (230SL, 250SL & 280SL) might there be in Canada.

A quick check of the forum Member list reveals the following statistics (when sorting the table by Location) ...

Total Canadian Members on this fine forum here are 127 (according to Member list Pages 4 to 6).

52 of those are mainly Basic Members (never having left a post).

Locations are listed as follows ....

14 Members listed there Location as simply Canada
31 Members are from British Columbia
08 Members are from Alberta
03 Members are from Saskatchewan
04 Members are from Manitoba
47 Members are from Ontario
17 Members are from Quebec
01 Member is from New Brunswick
02 Members are from Nova Scotia

How many of the above cars have actually been shipped to Canada and NOT imported like mine from Florida or other USA locations ... any ideas ... anyone?

[ghenne]

Based on population, I would guess 10% of the US figure.

Imports of cars from from various states (and Europe) will roughly balance with exports.

What % of Pagodas still survive?

[Benz Dr.]

 Most of the ones I now about or have worked on are not a member here. I would guess that it's at least 300 cars and it could be more.

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Dan, that tells me that those individuals spend there money on maintenance for there cars or flowers for there loved ones

Or might they be the ones that signed up here and are just lurking

Oh I know, they might be the ones that came across this site by accident then lost there way and never returned

[Benz Dr.]

I don't think so. I know a few cars have been sold or were moved to the States but a lot of them don't know about this site, or they're not interested. Some people are not into clubs of any sort and care little for internet chatter.

[Cees Klumper]

The way to work this is backwards from the total number of surviving cars worldwide (34,785) then calculate your country's number by dividing its population by that of the total population of developed (as in upper-upper income) countries, multiplying the result times the 34,785, and you'll be pretty close.

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

As Sargent Shultz of Hogan Heroes would say "Very Interesting"

[mnahon]

How do you get such a precise number for the number of surviving Pagoas world-wide?

[Cees Klumper]

  well, there have been discussions on this before and we don't know. But my personal best estimate is 35,000 given how: (1) there were 50 thousand produced, (2) these cars were usually bought as second or third cars, not for primary transportation, by (3) people who could afford to take care of them, and provide garages, (4) they are durable. So I am guessing  35 thousand left, but to make that estimate more believable for this post I made it more 'precise'. For the estimate of how many per country, I do believe it is appropriate to use the 'populalation numerator/denominator formula'.

[Benz Dr.]

I know of four that are no longer here. A lot of them have been wrecked but the vast majority are no longer on the road.

[280sl1968]

Canada is -1 more now too. Mine is coming with me on an adventure to the UK where I'll be working for a while.

We'll both enjoy leaving the BC rain for some British sunshine ;-)


David

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

David, don't be too disappointed if you find the weather in the UK very similar to BC I speak from experience having spend much time in BC and just visited London UK last year Report back to us once you spend some time in the UK.

Have a safe trip !

PS. what are they charging you to ship your Pagoda? Someone I know went last year and paid a higher air fair for the dog then for the plane ticket

[pj]

Hi Dieter,
the "verry interesting" catch-phrase came from Arte Johnson's character "Wolfgang" on Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In. Sgt Schultz's famous lines were "I know nothing," and "'Raus, 'raus, everybody 'raus." I loved watching Hogan's Heroes. They must have had such fun making that.

[GGR]

well, there have been discussions on this before and we don't know. But my personal best estimate is 35,000 given how: (1) there were 50 thousand produced, (2) these cars were usually bought as second or third cars, not for primary transportation, by (3) people who could afford to take care of them, and provide garages, (4) they are durable. So I am guessing  35 thousand left, but to make that estimate more believable for this post I made it more 'precise'. For the estimate of how many per country, I do believe it is appropriate to use the 'populalation numerator/denominator formula'.

I don't know if that's a good approach. I think you will find more Pagodas "per capita" in wealthy areas with good weather. For example, I think you will find much more Pagodas /1000 inhabitants in California than in Canada.

I also think that 35.000 survivors out of 50.000 produced is quite optimistic. When I looked around for a Pagoda project, the vast majority were basket cases, with terminal rust. Restoration was not an economically viable option (I know one rarely recoups restoration costs on these cars anyway). This may be a reason why you find so many parts on eBay: it is economically profitable to part out basket cases rather than restoring them. All this to say that for many that are still physically in existence, they may never be restored and will end up being parted out (at least in the US).

[Cees Klumper]

Yes all valid points. Although about the warm vs cold climates, apparently in Sweden nowadays there are more Pagodas than originally ever imported, so their statistic would be "more than 100% survive today". And as to how many really survived it's anybody's educated guess but I do feel confident the number is 'high' for the reasons I mentioned.

[Benz Dr.]

Survive is kind of a cryptic word. I have two that '' survive '' but I know one will go to the crusher before long.

[280sl1968]

Rolf-Dieter

It's costing approx CAD$3,500 for shipping, but that gives me half of a 40 foot container so there's enough space to cram a few boxes around the Pagoda.

Here she is strapped down for the ride (I thought the photo showed off the Pacific Northwest climate quite nicely!):

[Flyair]

Yes all valid points. Although about the warm vs cold climates, apparently in Sweden nowadays there are more Pagodas than originally ever imported, so their statistic would be "more than 100% survive today". And as to how many really survived it's anybody's educated guess but I do feel confident the number is 'high' for the reasons I mentioned.

Cees,
The situation is even more peculiar in countries formerly behind the iron curtain, such as Poland. Before 1989, while there were relatively many Mercedes cars, they were all types of sedan types, although two Gullwings were apparently here too. For Pagodas, they were rather incidental, if any. At least there no reports of any being here at that times. Today, the best guestimate is that there are around 120-150 cars, all imported over the last 10 years. So the increase is phenomenal .

Some of them were brought here in a pity state counting cheap labor, but underestimating the cost of parts. These are just languishing waiting for the improbable resurrection.
Another good deal of them are brought (often from the US) to be refurbished and sold to Western Europe.
The last part, that we estimate at around 50 are the cars in private hands (one of them in the hands of your truly ).

BTW, it is worth mentioning that Wieslaw (one of us from the Polish team who went to Willingen) owns together with his two sons three Pagodas. One for the father (280), one 250 and one 230 for each of the sons. This is what I call commitment to the type!     

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

That sounds like a fair price (thinking if someone has to move and takes his car + furnishings along). I know of someone paid close to $1K to ship a dog from Canada to the UK.

Perhaps there is money to be made, restoring a few Pagoda's in in North America then shipping them to Europe since they seam to fetch a higher price in Europe. Hmmm thinking

[Bonnyboy]

Not worth restoring in Canada at $80 - 120/hour  Need to go somewhere where labour is cheap- I met a guy who sends his cars to Cuba for restoration - we are Canadian so he doesn't get the problems the Americans get. 

[Benz Dr.]

I spent a week last Jan in the Dominican at a place that restores old benz cars. They had several in paint and more ready to be painted while I was there. Near concours level cars for about 125K.  It's impossible to restore cars in NA to that level for that much, it can't be done.

[pj]

I visited RM Restorations yesterday with a group from MBCA. It was a very interesting tour! Our guide said RM charges $79/hour for paint shop labour. Is that the low end of the price range, even though RM has a high-end reputation? I should have asked him if sheet metal work and mechanical was at a different rate. Who knows, maybe it was all just PR anyway.

[Benz Dr.]

That's a bit tricky to answer. Some body shops charge different rates for different proceedures. One rate for metal work, another for blocking and sanding, and another for paint work. Sometimes materials are included and often they aren't.

 They will put their lowest paid guy on the dirty jobs and then another guy on finish sanding or blocking if he's expirienced. The painter will be the best paid. You have to remember that it might be a lot of hours just get an Aburn boat tailed speedster ready for paint if they had to make the fender from scratch. Probably several thousand or more.

[pj]

The guide at RM didn't tell us too many numbers, but he did say that after the paint layers are all sprayed on the car, it takes 160 hours of finishing to get a perfect finish. 160 times $79 is $12,640. (Forgive me, I'm a math teacher.)

And yes, there was a boat-tailed Auburn in the body shop at RM. I remember the guide saying it was an "early" example, but there was a lot to learn and I can't remember if it was a Speedster, or what engine it would end up with. Of course there were dozens of interesting cars there! No Pagodas, but a 220S Ponton was in the mechanical shop and in the "museum" there was a delightful hardtop 300SL roadster and a gorgeous 1939 540K.