Rust!!

[scubadoc]

I am new to my Pagoda, and to this forum. (see the new member intro) 

The 1967 230 has been in my family for almost 40 years, and I have been intrusted with its safekeeping.  I have found several area of rust on the car.  The passenger floorboard, the rear panel, the driver wheelwell, etc.  we are talking through and through rust not just surface stuff.  there had been some undercoating done, and I think the driver wheelwell was the result of an accident.  I know my dad had the driver floorboard already repaired, but he was not known for his car maintenance!

I intend to preserve this beautiful car, but not restore it to museum or even car-show quality.  I want my kids to take it to the prom, as I drove their Mom to our prom in this car 25 years ago.  I want a sound weekend warrior that I can show off, but am not afraid to take out on a questionably rainy day.

The main question is on the preservation.  Do I need to take it to a Pagoda purist, and have top of the line work done or can I have a quality respected shop do the work?  I have to put my 4 kids through college, and can't afford the full restoration, but may do it 15 years from now.  I never intend to sell this car, but will pass it down to one of my kids.

Any suggestions on a reputable shop in the Mass South Shore, Cape Cod, or South Coast areas?

Thanks!

[Bonnyboy]

Welcome to the club.     If you still want to be able to put your kids through college I expect that a full resto is way out of your budget at this time.

Do you have space to do any of your own work?    Time and money helps but space is the big thing.   I even bought a used mid rise hoist to help my back out which has been very helpful.  I find that there are lots of procedures that you can do yourself that cuts down on the money spent at a shop - removing chrome, removing interior, removing rust to uncover what you have etc.


I too obtained a rusty vehicle from my father (check my early posts) and went at the moisture and rust with a scraper, grinder and a wire wheel in my garage finding the edge of solid metal just to see what I had left.  I tried to keep as much of the metal in place so I could make patterns before I cut it out but in some areas there was nothing left. 

Once the all the rust was removed and my moisture meter didn't record any moisture under undercoating I had a real sober look at the car.  I called in a couple "experts" and their decistion was that I should walk away from the car.   There is sentimental value to it so I decided to do what I could myself and live with the results instead of sending the car to a shop and not being able to pay for it to come out.  I couldn't do a full resto as my budget isn't there so I did what I could patching here and there. 

I got some "satin" sheets of metal (light galvanizing process) and some body tools and went to town.    I am more than happy with the results and if I ever win the lottery I can do a total resto but according to a couple different "experts" my work is fine and should last the remaining life of the car.   The cost of materials for my metal repair was 2 sheets of satin metal ($45 each), 1/2 roll of welding wire ($25), several grinding wheels and wire cups ($50), undercoating, rust killer, seam sealer, primers, colour matched spray paint ($150), sandpaper, polishing compound, gloves etc. etc. ($200).  Tools are important so you need that as well so a good time to hit harbour freight with a empty visa.  200+ hours were free.

If you don't have the space, time or desire to do some or any of the work yourself then at least researching the process necessary will let the repair shop know that you are knowledgable and will know when they try to sell you down the garden path.  There are most of the replacement panels available which will help the process and let the repair shop know about them.  One of my "experts" explained to me that some reputable body shops won't take on piece meal repairs on real rusty cars as they can't gaurentee the work if the rest of the car is rusty.  So finding someone who agrees to "piecemeal" restoration could be a task in itself. 

Good luck.

[450sl]

You could consider a combination of welding the necessary parts  and a Fluid-A  treatment to protect against ongoing rust.

[scubadoc]

I think I need to learn how to weld!  Not just for my Pagoda, but I am a fix-it-myself kind of guy.  I have welding projects on my boat that needs fixing too.  Anyone know where to start learning the basics?  I have a Tahoe I can practice on, and always wanted a Toyota Lancruiser, and those things are always rustbuckets! 

[pagoden]

Well back in the previous century I learned to weld at my friendly local community college.  The teachers tend to be folks with established careers in the field in which they teach.  I imagine most of the courses are IT now, and a lot of it geared toward getting a completion certificate required for a particular job, but I'd like to think they still offer some of the skills from pre-digital times; maybe that's more likely in more rural settings, as it's just about impossible to farm without being able to weld, pretty much 'on the spot'.  The man who taught most of my classes was a retiree who himself learned from a fellow who had welded in shipbuilding back when one of the things they did was to burn portholes through the thick armor plating of warships using specialized cutting torches improvised from long iron plumbing pipes, the ends of which would burn away as they were pushed into and through the several inches and feet of early 1900's naval armor.  Acetylene welding gas on that scale was generated on site in those days and my instructor could have taught me that skill set as well.  Community College instruction is oriented toward the very practical, or was 'in my day', the instructors being more experience-qualified practitioners than teachers per se.  These days welding equipment for small-scale work such as ours is not so expensive or difficult to use.  It does certainly take some instruction, and the more practice the better.  It can be fascinating watching your own personal lava through that mask; can also offer you some noxious crud to breathe, hot BBs of recently-molten steel to cozy up to, and so forth.  And very, very useful.  Sounds like you're going to like this - - - careful on the boat: very flammable.     

[Bonnyboy]

Mr. Scubadoc.

The local welding supply shop had an open huouse one afternoon and I signed up for a welding demo.  Its helpful tounderstand duty cycle,  hear what a proper weld sounds like and get instruction on safety. 

Go buy yourself a 220 wire feed welder with bottle (dryer or range type plug) - probably start with a 180Amp machine as the bare minimum and then go to the local body shop and see if you can borrow some scrap fenders doors or whatever.  Watch several utube videos and get out your angle grinders and snips and go to town practicing with speed, amperable and wire size.  I like the smaller wire for sheet metal. You will probably be a low setting with moderate speed for the wire.  Practice making beads on the bare metal and then practice joining metal without blowing through.  Practice filling in holes when you blow through

Once you think you could do a small job on your car practice on your scrap metal a bit more.  Then go around the neighbourhood looking for things to weld.  I fixed two newspaper carts and a wheel barrow and a trailer dolly for neighbours to hone my skills even more.  (I'm still a real novice)

I recommend that you stay away from the 110 welders or straight flux core (no gas) as you will drive yourself nuts unless you are real good.  The straight flux core with no gas is better for windy or rusty conditions but do a bit more prep and the gas is so much easier to work with. An automatic darkening helmet makes lfe easier still.  Welding jacket, boots, gloves etc. all important too.

When welding on my car I do spot welds one at a time alternating around the piece eventually filling up the welds cooling down the welds as you go with a damp rag so you don't get warping.  Weld, cool, hammer, weld, cool, hammer repeat...

Watch the clock when you get into this as its easy to waste a whole afternoon playing with a welder.

[dseretakis]

Buying a welder and learning to weld is just the tip of the iceberg.  Proper metal shaping/fabrication skills, understanding the processes of stretching and shrinking of metal and how they apply to working a welded seam, how to use a grinder and body file with finesse are all equally, if not more important skills.  Post repair and interim repair corrosion protection are also vital.  These skills take some time to master but if you are handy, dedicated and have nice steady hands you can master these repairs.

[scubadoc]

I have the steady hands, interest and dedication, but I have too many hobbies, toys and kids to dedicate the time to this project!  I will likely leave it to a pro to patch for now, and take the time to build my skills, and takle it in the future when time and money allow ( I do realize that there is never enough of either!)

[alweed]

scubadoc,

I am a newer member and, like you, have a '67 230sl, which also has some rust, but not as bad as yours appeared.  How did your experience work out?  I'm currently exploring options regarding repair, or panel replacement, and your input would certainly be helpful.

Also, did your SL have factory undercoating?  Mine seemingly does, but I'm not sure what will be found underneath that.  My SL has been in storage for about 20 years at the place I plan to have the restoration done (1000 mi. from where I now live) so I can't personally do the grinder thing to check.  Do you, or anyone else viewing this post, have any idea about the effectiveness of the early factory undercoatings?

[ja17]

A sharp pick-hammer or awl is good to use when checking for weak or rusted metal. If an area of rust-through or surface rust is found the area must be stripped of under coat, until shinny clean metal is found or not found. Clean off all undercoat around any damaged areas. I use an angle grinder with a stiff twisted wire brush attached. It eats through the undercoat and cleans the metal below. This process is not as toxic as a heat or chemical process. It is fast but hard dirty work. Wear all the necessary body protection. Keep a strong grip on the grinder it can do a lot of damage to you if it gets loose. When rust-through is found, complete panel replacement is best, but good lasting repairs can be had by carefully fabricating and welding in small sections. Zinc plated, rust-resistant replacement panels are available from some of our vendors. I first learned metal fabrication and welding at evening classes in a trade school. I have seen some metal forming experts offering classes in their shop for sale on Ebay these days. Correct cleaning, priming, painting, and sealing the repairs must be done afterward or the work will not last. Since panels are spot welded in at the factory, most experts feel that it is more destructive to solid weld complete panels in since the excessive heat from the solid weld changes the temper and crash characteristics of the metal. It is OK to solid weld smaller prtial patches back into a panel which is spot welded in place. It takes a long time to learn how to weld in patches into a body panel without warping and distorting the surface. The Eastwood Company carries a lot of restoration supplies and information. Do research and take some instruction so you know how to set-up and weld.

[JamesL]

There's a certain efficiency in using someone who knows the cars well - they'll have a clear idea of when a panel can be salvaged/patched or needs to be replaced and so on

If you do go the garage route, and can drive 3 hours each way, you could do worse than run it up to Gernold at SL-Tech in Arundel, Maine! Or give him a cal...

[KevinC]

The guys that did my car last year here in Western Mass do a great job with rust repairs. The do show-quality finish work, too.  PM me if you want their info.

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Hello scubadoc , First of all welcome and whatever you decide to do good luck!

I agree what Joe said above (if you have the time for it since it can develop into a major project), however, on the other hand your family is most likely more important in your life so as you said, let the pro handle it you will be glad you did when all is said and done. Keep us up to date as to the progress you are making one way or the other, we all love to read about it.

[stickandrudderman]

Nobody ever really understands what rust is until they try a restoration for themselves.

[dseretakis]

Nobody ever really understands what rust is until they try a restoration for themselves.

True and very few people really understand how poorly most "professional" rust repairs are done!  If ever you have a shop do a rust repair for you, make sure they photograph every step. That way you can see what was done. This might also incentivize them to do a better job!

[stickandrudderman]

If you take a look at my facebook page you'll see I am doing my best to educate the public on that!

[scubadoc]

Well the good and the bad.  I was finally able to get the car up on my buddy's lift and really inspect the rust.  There is some frame rot, but only on a couple of places, and overall, not as bad as I expected for a 47 year old car that was a daily driver.  The worst is near the driver's side front wheel well, and by what looks to be a drain in front of the rear wheel well. 

I will post some pics later.

My local guy, who does good work, would patch the rear panel, but frame work is likely not his thing.  I hear good things about Jim Cosgrove, but also hear he is expensive.  Maybe a ride up to his place this week if the weather is nice, and get an estimate.

I do have factory undercoating, but too many years in New England weather...

The saga continues, as I have also found the Land Cruiser to play with,  I must have gone completely nuts!!!

[KevinC]

Doc,

What are your guys seeing as "frame" rust? Any photos?

Kevin

[scubadoc]

here are some pics

[scubadoc]

i will have to read up on posting pics.  I have done it before, but this didn't work

[Peter van Es]

Check this: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9887.msg65165#msg65165

[dseretakis]

My local guy, who does good work, would patch the rear panel, but frame work is likely not his thing.  I hear good things about Jim Cosgrove, but also hear he is expensive.

There is no such thing as "good" rust repair that lasts. The rust repair has to be "the best" in order to last.  Jim Cosgrove has a good reputation so it is unlikely that you will be disappointed. As far as cost goes, most Indy mechanics and restoration shops charge in the $90-100 per hour range for labor. This definitely adds up when many hours of work are involved. I highly doubt that Jim charges more than that.

If you plan to keep the car, I would be very hesitant about going with someone who charges less. Simply welding in a patch does not constitute a proper rust repair. Prep work before, during and afterwards are of utmost importance, are very time consuming, and are frequently omitted by inferior shops.